Pandadoc Revenue, Valuation & Funding (2024)

[00:00] Hi, everyone. My name is Serge Barysiuk, and I'm CTO and cofounder of pandadoc. And today, we're gonna be talking about how we are doing this, continuous delivery of the product. My talk is gonna be slightly different from the business talks because I'm gonna be talking more about the production side. That's what I do. And I manage product and engineering, so that's why sometimes I have arguments with myself. Yeah. But so 800 product updates. You might call [00:30] BS, but I checked today, like how many did we do today? 24 so far. Day is still going. And, so that's all the updates we're delivering to production, which our customers can can already use. The question is, why would you care about this? And so let's take a look at the product life cycle. And my assumption here and hunch that many of you founders and even ourselves, we are playing in these two first stages, introduction and [01:00] growth. Right? What's important in those two stages is that [01:07] so we need to learn a lot and iterate to in the first stage, to find this product market fit, to test ideas, to validate things. And with the growth stage, so we need to close this gap really quickly to deliver the value to the customers and actually get this the leader position on the market. Right? What do we do to do this is we're going through this continuous learning cycle. Right? So we have a hypothesis, so [01:38] we do something, we launch this, we test and validate, we measure, then we iterate and change. The speed of this continuous learning cycle depends on the speed of the slowest link in the cycle. And the problem sometimes problems, they're in the different stages, but most of the problems you see, they lie between the implementation and review. And the reason why that so your idea in initiative is not just only one in your company. And when you're [02:10] ready to push this out to go and test and validate, so what you face is tons of things is happening in the product, and you need to integrate this in the code, and you need to merge. You need to talk to all the, developers, product managers, make sure that it's all integrated. But then you also need to see together, package the whole thing, deliver this to production, and so you need to go through the testing. You [02:32] need to go through the deployment and all this stuff. Right? What it does essentially, it actually slows down this learning cycle because you don't know if it's gonna stick or not, and you need to iterate, you need to do this quickly. So that's why people came up with this concept of continuous integration and continuous delivery, and, it's also known as CICD. You've probably heard about this. Right? And in many, many cases, people actually talk about more [02:59] of engineering side of the story. There are other sides of the story. And we'll sprint through engineering side really, really quickly just to explain how it works, and we'll focus more on the product and other sides. So with the engineering, the way how it works is the whole concept is so this is courtesy of GetLat and how they explain continuous integration and continuous delivery that so when we start working on something, so we just create a [03:23] branch, we're continuously delivering those little updates, to the master branch, which is the latest version of the application. But when you do this, it goes through the pipeline and it automatically tests and, do all the steps needed in order to integrate it. So you make sure that it's not gonna break anything, it's not gonna cause any issues, etcetera, etcetera. And what I mean by this is those steps in pipeline, it's testing automated testing, end to end [03:50] test, security, packaging linters, code style, and all of this stuff. And, the next stage is the continuous deployment. So what is that? It's like you need to package also your app in order to deliver to production, containers, libraries, updates, whatever whatever you need to do this, also automatically. So what it helps you to it helps you to eliminate this bottleneck on the engineering side to launch this really quickly and accelerate the cycle. This is a real [04:17] life example of pandadoc, one of the pipelines, one of the services. So what would you do? We automate all the steps, security, end to end tasks, packaging linters, code styles, and everything. So when you do this and when you merge, like, goes through this, pipeline, and you're kind of sure that it's not gonna break anything. So couple of things what we learned so far, and if I would give just one advice to you guys, if you're [04:45] interested, start doing this as early as possible because it is much easier to do this in the very beginning than later apply to to everything. Because if you have, like, 200 services and you need to apply this to all the microservice and all this other, just such a big project, to to take that, sometimes people are hesitant when to start. And a couple things, but the modular architecture, loosely coupled system will definitely help because it will, [05:11] again, decouple the whole thing, and you can independently, launch and update things, in the app. Now let's move into the product side of the story. And the the product side of the story sometimes is overlooked because, I mean, engineering will figure this out, and they're gonna be launching this, but, it's actually even, I think, more important than on the engineering side. [05:37] Very, very high level, those are type of updates you are producing, in your, probably, day to day jobs. So to update the product, so you're fixing some bugs, so you're doing some technical speed improvements, you're doing some UX improvements, you're up to launch some features and all these things. So the first two is like you probably deliver to the customers as soon as possible because you wanna, you know, squash this bug and move on. Right? The [06:02] latter two, they are more complex because sometimes you don't know what you're doing and you need to test. And again, that's where you apply this continuous learning cycle. That's what we learn. Right? So the product manager is have a hypothesis, so we're gonna test this. We're gonna launch this. We're gonna measure and how it's gonna affect everything. What I find very often in the mindset, we're constantly thinking about the end stage. Right? Controversial image, I know. [06:35] And this is from Agile World, but I think it's actually a good representation the way how you might think about this is like when you think about the feature, you're thinking about this end stage, and you can do continuous integration, continuous delivery all day long, but if in the middle of this process your customers can't use it, you're not learning anything. If you are waiting like you're doing continuous delivery every day, an update, but the customers [06:58] can't use it for the next three months, it doesn't help you to learn. Right? And so the mindset should be changed in order to switch to this, you know, learn by iterating approach. And sometimes it's a little bit hard because sometimes when you do an iteration and then you need to take two steps back, remove something, rework something, this waste is create this, you know, like tensions. Oh, I wanna do this, but sometimes it's needed. So [07:25] and I think it's a [07:28] mindset shift should should happen, like, on the product management side. Now imagine everything is working great. So your developers delivering this code continuously. You, our product managers, are thinking about this in iterations, like slicing and dicing this correctly. And so you have this amazing update, and it went live through the continuous delivery. Do you wanna show this skate to 100,000 customers altogether? Probably not. Right? So you're not ready for prime time, so you need to test [07:59] this thing first with a very, very limited subset of the customers. Maybe get their feedback, maybe iterate. When you're ready for prime time, then have your prime time. And in order to manage this scale, people came up with the idea of the feature flag. So what is feature flag? Feature flag is basically a toggle which tells you this. If this thing, update, change, feature UX update, is visible to a particular customer. And in order to manage [08:29] this on scale, not in the code, there are different systems which allows you to do this and define those feature flags and independently manage them from the code. So when you write your feature, you wrap this in a feature flag, and there is a system. So this is split IO real system, and you can use it to manage those tags and gradually roll out the features to your customers when you need it, like to learn, to [08:54] get the feedback, to see behavioral metrics, and all that stuff. So the pandadoc, we probably right now have roughly 300 feature flags, like, in the different stages. Some of them, they're rolled out completely. Some of them, they're, like, still, maybe like one, two percent, but this is how it works. And the product managers can actually do these changes independently from the system. They don't need to release anything, so it's independent. And if something goes wrong, they [09:21] also can go down to zero, and nobody will see this. [09:26] Our strategy about the audience and the rollout strategy is kind of like very, very slow in the very beginning, so we take this only internally. We test this, so we have teams who are using pandadoc every day so they can give feedback. We're gradually rolling out this to other users. We like to work with the customers we know and we trust, so it's a CAP, customer advisory board, some early adopters, some recruited users who might be [09:52] interested in this feature. But then we are ready for prime time, so we start testing on a little bit bigger audience. The tendency is and a strategy we like to use is lower risk to higher risk because you probably have also diversity of the customers in the very beginning, so you might go with the maybe, I don't know, like a free product customers or something, and then switch to more bigger customers, more value customers, and all [10:16] this stuff. Following the well known patterns, early access, alpha, beta, and then general availability. [10:25] Now, how do we recruit those early adopters? You'll be surprised, but actually people like to try new things, especially if they're excited about those new things. And the way how we do this is there are multiple places where you can grab them. First is the community boards. So we use user voice or some other things, it doesn't matter, where we collect the feedback from the customers. If we see, I don't know, like a particular feature and [10:49] we start working on them, we have a list of the customers we can contact, and if we have the first version ready or something, or even to talk to them so we can can invite them and try. Customer advisory board, which we have also, support, surprisingly, is a good source because people are asking about something. Hey, do you have this and that? You might have, but it might not be released to the customers yet, and you [11:12] can enable to get the feedback and other things. [11:17] So now you launch this. Like, you're continuously delivering all the stuff. In order to complete the cycle, what you need to do is also you need to measure because if you want measure, you can improve. You don't know what to do next. You can assume, but in reality, you don't know. So our strategy, how we do this, obviously, different depending on the stage. And in the very, very beginning, so when we launch this, when it's kind [11:44] of like a very early stage of the feature or like a change, so we try to do this a little bit hacky, more like a behavioral and usage type of thing. We use Amplitude, and Amplitude is the analytical platform where you can apply on top so the product managers can do this and understand, oh, people even interact with this or not. Right? And, when it's a more mature stage of the feature, so we try to apply [12:09] more structured approach. So we have a TARS dashboards for the feature, so we move this into, Tableau and our own, kind of the analytical platform to have a deeper look, especially if the feature affects the revenue. [12:25] Obviously, qualitative feedback. It is very important, especially in the very beginning because sometimes there's behavioral things in the user, they don't show anything because if they don't use, you will not see anything in the analytics side, and so you need to talk to users as well. It would be end of the story, and your developers would deliver this to customers. Your product managers would iterate and find this, you know, ideal, feature for the customers and tune [12:58] this for the customer, but life is not that easy. And the the life is not easy because when you hit scale and when you have 40 teams working on the different things in the different parts of the application, launching this to the users and 300 feature tags, what it creates? It creates a big mass which you put on your customers. They see this. They this is new. This changed. This has changed, you know, like in word [13:25] testing and and validating. That's probably not what you want to do. Right? Because you wanna satisfy your customers, and that's why you are actually learning a lot what to do. So, therefore, you need some a layer of policing of what you do. And the way how we handle this at pandadoc is with the product market and and the packaged product launches. So what is product launch? So think about this as a story and, you know, like [13:52] a topic you are working on. It can be improvement, can be speed improvements, can be a feature, it can be, something you decided to improve in the [14:01] customer pain points, some other things. Right? And so what the product marketing does is it creates a story, and you start packaging those dispersed features across the system you were testing into something more tangible and connected as well, and which is enabled with the proper launch, blog post, pictures, and also all other teams are enabled as well, sales, customer success support, because sometimes we overlook the thing. And so we launch this and that, feature flag to [14:32] 100%, it's done, but it's not. And the teams don't know about this. They can't sell it. They don't know how it works and all these things. So this is very important to kind of close the loop and capitalize on what you've been working on because you invested a lot of resources. And so that's what we do when we package them, and that's where you might see, I don't know, like a blog post with the announcement of [14:55] some module, I don't know, application or improvements in the speed and stability. That's that's a product launch. To summarize all the things, engineers are continuously working on this and continuously integrating the code. So it's a low risk. We don't create those bottlenecks in the integration step and in the delivery step. Everything is rolling out continuously. The product managers, they are using feature flag testing this, sometimes kill things, sometimes, finalize and, polish, and the product marketing is [15:26] packaging them into something presentable to the users to capitalize on your investment. And that's how we do this at pandadoc.

hello everyone my guest today is Makita Mikado he was born in a click on Minsk Belarus around the time USSR started to collapse severe infection from with the Entrepreneurship bug got him to do things like wash cars when he was 7 years old and so Barry than he was 10 eventually got so badiy to jump on a plane to the United States where this type of disease not only treated but also reward he started multiple software companies raised many millions of dollars in financing built amazing teams and helped dozens of thousands of businesses be more efficient his project today Panda dot-com Makita are you ready to take us to the top absolutely are you serious those you secretly missed those berry-picking days don't you I do you know it's it's a lot healthier than sitting in front of your computer that is true in case you're considering something like that so tell us about the barriers you're picking today in the form of Panna doc what do you guys do and what's your revenue model how to make money yeah we're a software company that helps to streamline sales documents anything from quotes to proposals contracts getting those documents generated delivered signed track and so on and so forth that's our business we charge per user per month basis it is a subscription based software that you can use out of your browser no professional services or big setup fees like yet nothing like that no we typically work work with small to medium sized businesses and while we do have professional services it's not like it's not like a software application that I would take you years to deploy and you gotta yeah yeah you just you know a lot of our customers just sign up for an account figure it out themselves and start using it and we're just chatting pre-call you know the last time you were on the show is almost 2 years ago so it's it's been a it's been a second back then you shared your ARP who was around a hundred bucks for customer have you actively tried to increase that or have you stayed there and just try to drive volume yeah we're staying within the same range and we did drive quite a bit of volume so we talked I think about a year and a half ago and yeah year and a half ago and since then for money we might have you raised today close to 2030 million that is funny okay yeah I'm going back so that what that was a series your series a or series B we're serious be serious bit which was at how much nine series D was no no no it was fifteen yeah prior to that raised five so that makes a total of close to twenty but you know how it works in the individual world items I know so you can buy back yeah when did you when did you kind of make the strategic decision that you know what we're gonna make this a funded company it doesn't make sense to bootstrap this thing so prior to Pentagon had a different product that we took to profitability you're talking about controller yeah bye-bye self funding the whole thing for more than a year and once we became profitable with with this offer and the company we just we weren't able to help ourselves but notice that I feel like the opportunity is so much bigger that's when we decided to raise money and sort of say go big and what have you scaled to today in terms of total customers we are close to 10,000 accounts okay that's great doc today yeah you're on the show you said you just cost about seven thousand so about three thousand new ads are the best year and a half that sound about right yeah okay yeah okay good and then look ten thousand customers out that are pooi just articulated I mean have you broken a million bucks a month yet depends in bookings yes in mr our we're a little shy of that yeah but but something you'll probably definitely break the next month or two right couple months tell me why do you talk about those two things differently kind of educate us on why bookings would be different than em are our recognition because bookings involve annual subscriptions and professional services remember those are present okay so I'm looking Sarah larger typically yeah I know about professional services that's not any yeah you don't have and 5% any revenues is in professional services is it it is sinking 5% on on them on a monthly basis I think we're actually around precisely what is that what is the fight if I sign for pandadoc and I pay you a little bit of professional services what am I getting Fred setup fees and stuff now well would help you to integrate your CRM system with pandadoc would provide some design services on top of your existing sales collateral a lot of people like that we just help to make your sales proposals look a lot better and there's value for for a lot of sales teams that want to get that done from our perspective we just want to make our customer successful in the best way we can and that means that we have to engage our design team to help you out but we totally do that what else were we do trainings right trainings I would take your content and convert it into in the doc format you're a busy and you don't have time to do that so basically back in is like those are the types of those are the types of things that we do as a part of our professional services tell me where most of the customer earth is coming from I know last time we spoke you talked in a very nice light about the integration with hub spots app exchange and that's been great for you guys are you leveraging other app exchanges to continue a drive growth or do you still see most of it coming from hub spot yeah hopefully we're gonna pop up when Salesforce AppExchange in the next couple of weeks HubSpot is great but it's just one of the channels the biggest thing for pandadoc is that when I send you a panda dock it looks pretty cool you know it's gonna be a nice document and it's electronic we can collaborate on it go back and forth instead of exchanging multiple emails for the attachments and you can sign on it with legally binding electronic signature so in cases recipients of the documents get curious about hey but it just happened what's that software and they sign up yeah so that natural virality is wood helps us to drive the business quite a bit and what has the growth been over the past 16 or so months main are we talking a hundred percent your your growth or more or less no it's less we're averaging seventy percent okay that's pretty healthy I mean you guys are getting up and I mean if you're if you're close if you passed a million bucks a month in bookings I mean it's hard to double 12 million in ARR right well you can do that and I I think we can do that as well it's just a matter of choices that we make strategically I we don't see a we're gonna see that competition-wise there are a lot of threats and what your point is you know their growth rates are lower than yours we we know that from the product perspective and from the loss of growth perspective we have a little bit of time so which is not to raise a ton of money and you know be super aggressive at this time we might change that yeah like that thinking might change but for now that suits us pretty well and as long as that you're not burning a lot of money and you can become profitable at a point you wand sell you percent it's good yeah yeah so again you over your growth again if you're around that million-ish mark today and mr are it mean is it fair to say about a year and a half ago you were doing somewhere around 500 600 generally accurate so 500 I think we were at 500 around that way January 2016 is the time we would talk yes so January 2017 is is that's that's when we're 505 yeah okay okay okay great that's good I'm probably a little less than that but that's great and then as you add you execute your growth strategy here throughout 2018 it sounds we have other app exchange launches coming down the pipeline I mean what do you hope to drive ARR - what do you hope to drive your growth at what do we hope to drive our growth at you know honestly they the way we think about it it's it's not mr r is not the top metric that we care about we care about a lot is the number of customers NPS within our customer cohorts how happy our customers with our products are we getting the right types of customers because you know we're not we're not the best product for for everyone right so that that's really what we were we are after and Mr R is the is the result of doing the right thing on all those fronts how do you know that the things you're measuring know if it's are directly correlated to MRO that's always a tricky thing for people to figure out right yeah so we don't we assume like it's it's it's I think at some point we'll get to the to to correlating let's say NPS score and monthly recurring revenue and seeing some dependencies and as of today we assume that this is the case and that's what I'm hearing more and more from revenue leaders in Silicon Valley so I tend to believe that you know slack people say that that's that's the ultimate metric you have to focus on and I tend to believe that yeah last time you're on the show against about a year and a half ago you said you're gross logo churn per month is about five percent how is that panning out I'd slaughtered them back at this point slower meaning it's like four three percent or like six or seven percent well churn is it you know is something that I wouldn't probably be disclosing on a podcast but it is much lower than five percent okay and gross monthly logo turn I'm talking about Laura churn per month and over the course of last the course of existence of our product we were able to drive turn down quarter-over-quarter yes I say that because you did I have the quote I mean you did say five percent gross logo term per month last Miran you've driven that down it sounds like significantly man can you point to two or three things you've done that really helped you drive that down yeah first of all we introduced professional service I don't think we had them at the time we taught so that helped the reason we do professional services is frankly not to make money but to ensure that our customers get to value faster and that's that helps tremendously so that's number one number two we increased our increased coverage for our customer success team what's that mean in the pan well in the past we had we start with two CSM's that focused only on large accounts that was customer success managers yeah yeah yeah customers class managers and today we have a team of eight that focus on much smaller accounts compared to you know a year and a half ago and then finally product product key Malone way quarter-over-quarter we were fixing bugs and adding features and polishing UX and onboarding and so on and so forth and you can see in the cohort analysis that things get get greener and greener and greener better and better and better so that obviously helps yeah those are all great levers people in Drive turned down you shared last time payback period to keep it about 12 months which was about me meant you know you spend at the 1200 bucks to apply our customer have any of those two metrics changed are you more aggressive less aggressive today a little more aggressive okay so you're happy we're a team yeah that's usually what happened so just just to be clear you're happy with like a 16th or 18 month payback period you have the cash to be more aggressive yeah it's pretty close to 16 okay that's good that makes a lot of sense then again with a monthly our approval hundred bucks I can take a hundred ten to sixteen to assume CAC is 1,600 bucks where are you spending that 1,600 typically any direct stuff or all inside sales well I'm sure a lot of our competitors are watching your show so like I would tell you tell me this tell me the experiments that failed experiments that failed we built Oracle integration and try to try to do that yeah how about that for a dumb thing I mean it's not dumb if you're not you know if you're not and and if you're not an SMB SAS company but it was pretty dumb for pentagon yeah what do you today in terms of team size you're at a hundred and six people year in Africa we're at 160 okay okay actually wait 170 at this point and what are most those additional you hire about 70 people where there's most additional hires product or sales or what yeah that's the product okay that's the product I think our sales headcount did not increase the increase by a couple of people and CSM's right and where's home to everybody based everyone all over the globe we've got about 90 people in Belarus and got about 80 people in us actually can be correct like 97 are in Belarus the last time I checked /y a little over 70 and and why why Belarus what's what's advantageous about that for you well what do you think that accent comes from well I'm not sure if it was your hometown or what but strategically I mean is it cheaper cost to capital we started in Belarus and then I exported myself here right that's where our core is at product some support some marketing a couple of CSM's some operations we try to blend teams but for obvious reasons the team is in Belarus to the team and Belarus is heavier on the product side I mean like it Belarus is fantastic or for hiring engineers hundreds of outsourcing companies that you can pull from and we've been fortunate to to have our product organization in Minsk that that's that works extremely well and on the contrary it's very hard to hire for sales in Belarus almost impossible I mean the marketing and sales were illegal yes Soviet Union and therefore that debate had a real hard time developing you know that's funny had a u.s. operation yeah well you know that's that's why we have the that's why we have offices in San Francisco and st. Pete Florida Makita around the time that you closed your series a round of financing a gentleman by the name of Brad coffee who leads M&A at HubSpot had an interesting Twitter check-in which was location oriented or Belarus and he doesn't go to Belarus for random reasons why did you strategically decide to raise capital versus sell to somebody like a HubSpot it's what we do can be like a hundred times bigger you cut out right when you started that you said what to be honest maker well we're working on could be 100 times bigger how do you the strategic let's let's ignore hub stuff for a second as I've found any founder listening today when they'd raise capital many of them may also have ello eyes for acquisition on the table as well whether you had that duality or not how do you recommend founders think about those two options uh well I can tell you how we think about it but I think it's so personal and and private that giving any kind of advice on that front is is the advice that I know it should take all advice you can share even though obviously it is your own bias yeah so there are three things that might go found there and I care about number one we want to learn learning is something we deeply passionate about who want to get better quarter-over-quarter wanna have new challenges and we want to learn number two we want to make an impact and when we started this company the impact was quite frankly on on ourselves we wanted to build a product and try to quote roller we had a service business and it was a super stressful business you know you were our and then you know you're being woken up at night it just it wasn't it wasn't great so first started with the the impact on our own lives right we just wanted a Zen Zen business and then people started using our software and they loved it so then we wanted to make an impact on their business and we wanted to have a lot of them using our software and then people joined our company and we noticed that hey actually we held them learn and we held them making impact and build careers so there is this third you know a third dimension or for the for the impact value that we care about see I say impact is the number 2 and then finally we want to have fun I'm gonna learn want to make an impact and want to have fun while we're learning and making that impact so they really think about M&A is if a certain merger is gonna help us to learn make an impact and have a lot of fun then sure why not you know a lot of potential M&A after you raise around like you raised cuz you have to sell for so much so you first have to grow any value whatever valuation you negotiated which I bet was good because it sounds like you're probably a great negotiator so you have to grow into the valuation and then you have to sell for someone the liquidation preference you have to sell for way above that to make it even worth it so you really now are committed to like you know do your own thing for a year and a half grow grow grow grow grow yeah well the first thing you've got to do when you raise money you should you shouldn't have some crazy liquidation preferences like I would I'd rather take clean terms but a higher valuation well everyone would like clean terms and a higher valuation I think what you're intersted is you'd rather have clean terms and a lower valuation yeah I would rather have clean terms than I don't see I see I said so that's for one and then for two if you can grow with the money that that you're raising to the expectations of every involved party then and if that growth milestone or and at that time it's gonna take use it's something you want to do then why not to do that right so that's where we were with our CSB when you that we can at least 10x our customer base and our annual recurring revenue so then why not very good alright let's wrap up here with the with the famous five number one what's your favorite business book my favorite business book I gave you one I'll give you another one this time check out what doesn't kill us it's a great book and it is about sustaining cold and I got on the I got on the program that this book is preaching and oh my god like I love it good I'm so much your book Lester your book last year was pitch anything so pitch anything and what doesn't kill us both those books yeah all right number two Makita is their CEO you're following or studying CDO CEO Oh CEO is their CEO I'm following are studying yeah yeah so actually I read a lot of stuff that both founders of hops but put out through think right and I think they got they got also pieces there and I find a lot of similarities between our businesses the market would go after is very similar so found that come from very relevant number three is their favorite online tool you have for building a business besides your own and besides HubSpot this has hops why I didn't name hotspot let's see let's see just when you use everything Guetta yeah you got a cut-off me be dumb but [Music] what do I use every day I use my calendar at this point and like I used Google slides like that's that's my job Google sign blah blah and like put slides together blah blah more good that's number four how many are asleep to eat every night eight hours of sleep right now I got a little one around right I got two two little ones and married right yeah yeah yeah I'm 32 32 last question what do you is you're 21 yeah I am 20 year old self knew that I need to learn to [Music] work and deal with people wish I took some maybe like psychology classes or something along those lines management classes that would help me to to be a better manager because that matters so much after you have more than 20 people on your team guys there you have anyone in your company it would have sharpen his people skills earlier on but it seems to be doing something right over 170 people on his team today launched in 2011 pandadoc helping you sin proposals and quotes in minutes they're scaling rapidly a year ago they had about seven thousand customers now have over 10,000 customers paying on average 100 bucks a month so they're flirting with that a hundred million I'm sorry $1,000,000 per month mark seventy percent year-over-year growth really healthy twenty million dollars raised spending up to 16 our bucks to acquire a customer he's comfortable with a 16 month payback period considering they just raise capital healthy economics and his team is split between Belarus and the United States Makita thank you for taking us to the top