How Younium Reached $6.5M ARR and 200 Customers Selling Subscription Management to B2B CFOs (Interview with CEO Niclas Lilja)

Introduction and Company Snapshot

Nathan Latka

00:00Guys, he's cut his teeth for many years in b to b SaaS. He used Zuora back at his last company and said there's gotta be a better way to bill enterprise customers and track things like net retention, etcetera. He's now selling Unium directly to CFO, started off cold calling back in 2017, got his first customer. Now the team is 60 full time, 20 engineers, six quota carrying sales reps, 200 paying customers, and an average ACV of

00:21around 30 k. They're moving up market past $6,000,000 of ARR and done a pretty capital efficient with just $10,000,000 raised as they look to continue to scale. Hey, folks. If we haven't met yet, my name is Nathan Latka. I launched and sold my first software company back in 2015 and went on to write a book about it, which you guys made a Wall Street Journal bestseller purchasing over 30,000 copies. Thank you so much for that. After

00:45the book, I launched this show and went on to create founderpath.com. I raised a large fund to do non dilutive deals with B2B software founders. So far, we've invested in over 400 software founders totaling $150,000,000. Here in 2024, we're doing three to four new deals per week. So if you're looking for capital and don't wanna give up equity, go sign up at founderpath.com for free to get your offer. Alright. Let's jump into the interview. Hey, folks.

01:15My guest today is Nicholas Lilia. He's building a subscription hub for b to b software companies at unium.com, launched seven years ago back in 2017. Now growing, you're gonna learn about it today. Nicholas, you ready to take us to the top?

Niclas Lilja

01:28>> Sure. Happy to be here.

What Younium Does and How It Makes Money

Nathan Latka

01:29So for folks that haven't heard of you, give us a quick overview. What's the company do? How do you make money?

Niclas Lilja

01:35>> So we serve software and SaaS companies preferably in B2B. And what we do is that we provide a SaaS for them to manage their subscriptions and their contracts with their end customers so that they can, you know, do the quoting, they can do the subscription management, they can do the billing, they can get all the finances in place and, you know, do the metrics and get that from a, not from a spreadsheet, but actually from transactions

01:59>> like ARR, NRR, retention rates, etcetera.

Comparison to Ramp, Brex, Chargebee, and Stripe

Nathan Latka

02:03This real time data is obviously really important. I think my audience will be wondering, okay, I use like ramp or Brex and they build some of this inside of their tools. You're pure play, I think doing expense management like this. How would you compare and contrast yourself to some of these card providers?

Niclas Lilja

02:18>> So we're not doing expense management. We are on the customer invoicing side. So it's more on they, you know, selling and getting paid for the software or the things. So that's more on the side where we're in, but definitely we're a pure, you know, that's the only thing we do. We typically sit between like a Salesforce and HubSpot and a back end like a NetSuite or QuickBooks and perhaps your own service and how to get that

02:44>> orchestrated and done in a good way all the way from, you know, quoting, dealing with the subscription over its lifetime. Maybe you're doing upsells, you're doing indices, you're doing things with that. Maybe it's a customer success team. Maybe you do self-service, how to get that all in one place, have one source of truth and then make sure everything is correct when it turns to like revenue recognition, when you have your, you know, your ARs to report

03:06>> to the board, etcetera. So that's how it basically fit in.

Nathan Latka

03:09I misunderstood you. So thanks for the clarification. You're you're way more like a Chargebee or Stripe.

Niclas Lilja

03:16>> Yeah. Definitely.

Nathan Latka

03:17So how would you okay. So same question. Right? How would you compare yourselves against against them or do people use you both together? Charge b plus Unium Stripe plus Unium.

Niclas Lilja

03:24>> No. I think it's I think it's fairly straightforward, I would say. So we are focused only on B2B. So we don't do any B2C. So you definitely have some place, you know, doing a bit of B2C and also like B2B where it's very, very standardized. Maybe it's an online 99 a month, very standardized. They are doing it great, you know, go with that. We're more into like when companies are doing bigger deals, maybe a higher average

03:55>> revenue per deal, maybe more light items, perhaps a bit more, I would say, custom. It could be as well or a mix of like an online channel and enterprise deals. And that's typically where we come in. So I would say it's quite a depending on what kind of business you're having. What makes sense. So

Nathan Latka

04:17going back to the founder story here, obviously, a lot of people, at least I think the best founders they build for their own pain they had. Before Unium, where were you? How did you discover that this was a problem you wanted to build for?

Founder Background and Origin Story

Niclas Lilja

04:27>> Yeah. So I've been in the software or SaaS industry for some twenty years now. So I started my career at Medius. So there we were actually doing supplier invoice management and a bit of expense management as well.

04:42>> And sort of did the whole journey from selling software, you know, installations and all that stuff and doing the transformation into the cloud and subscription models.

04:52>> I pretty much did everything around that. And one of the last things we did actually was to, you know, get one of these your place systems ready for that and, you know, introduce it to the organization, etcetera. And I just figured, so I've been thinking about I wanted to start my own company at some point, but I need to Just

Nathan Latka

05:14to be clear, you built this from scratch inside of Medias and said, I need to build this for everybody

Niclas Lilja

05:18>> No, on a no, no, no, no, Quite the opposite. We we we went with another solution. And I thought like, okay. This is the best the market has to offer. Maybe we can do something better. So that's

Nathan Latka

05:31And now, Nicholas, wanna know which one. Who did you use?

Niclas Lilja

05:36>> We used Zora back in time. I think they are still named the category leader.

Nathan Latka

05:42They're getting killed in the public markets, though. I mean, they're they're down a lot.

Niclas Lilja

05:47>> Yep. But, I mean,

Nathan Latka

05:48have they tried to acquire you?

Niclas Lilja

05:50>> That's where we were at. And I figured like we can do something better and maybe we can do it, you know, with a bit more local approach. Maybe we can do it for companies that are not so I felt like I was, you know, my background was that I've seen, you know, that it's not always perfect.

Nathan Latka

06:06That makes sense.

Niclas Lilja

06:07>> It always looks perfect, but in reality, it's not.

Pricing Model and Average Contract Value

Nathan Latka

06:09Talk to me a little bit more about how you're going to market. Pricing is a key piece of go to market. Right? So how do you package this? What's the average customer paying you per month to use Unium?

Niclas Lilja

06:19>> So typically, would say like an average price point is around $30,000 year, a year that is, right? So that's some average, quite a big spread from small companies to big companies as well. We try to align it with value and then we try to find some sort of proxy that you also can measure, right? So we typically find, you know, number of legal entities and some sort of AR tier being the best proxy so far. So

Discovering the Problem at Medius and Using Zuora

Niclas Lilja

06:51>> that's how we do it. So if you have 10 companies in 10 countries and you're making, you know, a $100,000,000, the value will be something different from, you know, one company in one country and $1,000,000. Right? So so we try to proxy that as much as possible.

Net Revenue Retention and Growth Rate

Nathan Latka

07:08A good way to measure the value of your utility based pricing metrics, in your case, ARR level plus number of legal entities is to look at net net revenue retention right over time. So when you look at those value metrics, are you able to drive a 120, 130% net revenue retention?

Niclas Lilja

07:23>> Nope, not yet. But we're definitely aiming to do that.

07:29>> We are growing, but I also think during our course of the seven years, I think we have sort of found our path as well. And and we I think we're moving a bit more upstream as well and to bigger and bigger accounts. So a bit of a shift there, but we're not seeing the 120, 130 yet.

Nathan Latka

07:51Are you over? Are you over a 100%? Yes.

Niclas Lilja

07:54>> I think also like in our size, I know there's a lot of talk about like net retention and I totally agree that it's of course important to have that because it's, you know, a value. What do the customer say? What do they really, really think when it comes to the wallet, right? But I think also when you are, you know, when you're not super, super big, I think like new customer growth is equally, if not more

08:22>> important as well. If you do the math, I definitely see, you know, a ramping effect if you accumulate over years.

08:34>> But also, I I think that new customer growth is equally important in the early days.

Getting the First Customer by Cold Calling

Nathan Latka

08:40So Nicholas, tell me that story. How how did how did you how did you get your first customer? So

Niclas Lilja

08:47>> if we exclude sort of the, you know, a few friends and families in the in the in the beginning, two or three, the first one was actually me on the phone calling, you know, 20 companies back in my hometown.

Nathan Latka

09:03Where was your hometown? Oh,

Niclas Lilja

09:05>> the cold. What job Sweden.

Nathan Latka

09:08And what job time were you targeting?

Niclas Lilja

09:09>> It was doing this. So so we've been sort of, you know, creating some sort of prototype in this space for, like, five months. And then I started calling and, you know, trying to get some meetings and, you know, very, very

09:24>> not fancy.

Nathan Latka

09:25Nicholas, what what give us some sense of what job title were you targeting back in the early days? Head of revenue, CRO?

Niclas Lilja

09:31>> CFO. CFO. Our thesis is what the, you know, you can sort of get by with a lot of things, but in the end, it all falls down into the lap of the CFO and they have to figure out the solution. But if you're in sales, you can do something and then you can just push it downstream. But in the end, someone will have to say, okay, these are the correct figures and they are by the book

09:53>> and they're all good. And that's typically where the problem sort of ended up. So that's where we started. So we took it from a very much of a, you know, financial function perspective when we started out.

Nathan Latka

10:05And what was your ACV back then on average back in 2017?

Niclas Lilja

10:15>> Think I it was okay, to be honest. I, but maybe towards like '18 or '20, something like that. But it was actually, you know, quite good in the beginning. And then I think we had a bit of a slump when we when we sort of expanded the organization and and we could build more of a broader approach. And then we've been, you know, kicking off here.

Team Size, Engineers, and Sales Reps

Nathan Latka

10:37What do you mean broader approach? How many folks are full time today would you say at the company?

Niclas Lilja

10:41>> So we're currently close to 60.

Nathan Latka

10:44Six zero. How many engineers?

Niclas Lilja

10:45>> Yeah.

10:48>> Around 20. It's Wow. So a third. Yeah. I mean, we're still we're not done. Right? I mean, we were sort of in the first stint of what we wanna achieve.

Nathan Latka

11:03And is this is this price point large enough where you can afford to put sort of sales reps on the sale? And if so, how many quota carrying reps do you have?

Niclas Lilja

11:12>> So at the moment, I think we are six quota carrying reps. Yes, we can. And I think we're definitely moving sort of a bit upwards.

11:26>> But I also do think that for most companies, is not only an IT project, it's not only a software, it's also a change project.

11:37>> And I think at least for a while, I think we will be better off with some human touch and some one to one interaction, in sales process as well as onboarding.

Nathan Latka

11:50A lot of folks listening to this, especially SASSIS and Nordics, they might be wondering, how do I hire my first two reps? What quota do I give them? How much time should I give them to ramp up to that quota? How did you make those decisions for your first one or two sales hires?

Hiring and Ramping the First Sales Reps

Niclas Lilja

12:06>> I

12:10>> I think we didn't really put a quota and treated them as a sales rep. It was more like, hey, now we're going to do this together. So I think that's a bit of a different approach maybe. And, you know, okay, let's lean in, let's do this together and, you know, find out how to do it.

12:30>> But I think we've always, when we've been talking about quota, we've been talking about, you know, the five times or the four to six times ARR is what it should be. I think it's also overly optimistic thinking that you will have that on day one when you don't have a brand, you don't have a solution, you don't have the customer reference, you don't have it right. So I think you have to be a bit careful with

12:48>> not over setting that. I think you have to sort of grow into that quota as well.

Nathan Latka

12:56Yeah. So what do you So, Nicholas, what do set quotas today for your AEs?

Niclas Lilja

13:01>> So today, it's five times ARR.

Nathan Latka

13:06Five times ARR or five times their their salary?

Niclas Lilja

13:11>> Oh, sorry. Five times OTE. But but the Yeah. OTE should be five yeah. Yeah. Alright.

Nathan Latka

13:20No. No. You're you're I think I I I got what you're

Niclas Lilja

13:22>> saying. OT.

13:23>> Yeah. Five times.

Nathan Latka

13:25Say say that one more time.

Niclas Lilja

13:28>> The ARR they bring in should be five times the OT.

13:31>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

13:32So and and is it full is it is it fair to say that an OTE at Unium is gonna be or an OT is gonna be somewhere between called one hundred and two hundred ks. So you're expecting something like a 600 to 800 ks quota?

Niclas Lilja

13:45>> Yeah. Think like salary levels are quite different depending on whether you're in different countries in Europe and in The US. But yes, yes, yes.

Nathan Latka

13:56Well, that's why I asked. That's why want know what yours was. I know it's different than what I hear in The US.

Customer Count and Growth Trajectory

Niclas Lilja

13:59>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like

14:08>> this is not pure, this is not fully scientific, but if I would guess something, would like take

14:16>> salaries being half of The US. Mhmm. Yeah. In Northern Europe. And then somewhere maybe a bit higher in some parts of Europe. But, you know

14:27>> yeah.

Nathan Latka

14:28So you started off cold calling seven, eight, nine, ten years ago. Right? Not that long ago. Seven, years ago. You then build the team up to 60 people. You've got six quota carrying reps. You're onboarding sales reps now. With all these things you've learned, how many customers are you now serving?

Niclas Lilja

14:42>> So we crossed 200.

Nathan Latka

14:45Oh, wow.

Niclas Lilja

14:46>> So that's good. So now it feels like, you know, a decent size. Very, very happy about that. And

14:56>> it's going faster and faster, so I'm really, really happy about that as well. Yeah.

ARR Calculation and Capital Efficiency

Nathan Latka

15:01What growth rate are you targeting this year?

Niclas Lilja

15:05>> So rolling twelve months, we're looking at some 60%. It's been a bit higher actually in the beginning of the year, I think around 60.

Nathan Latka

15:15You'd be you'd be happy

Niclas Lilja

15:16>> then to targeting cash flow positive by, you know, end of twenty twenty four. So that's sort of the balancing act that we're trying to to do.

Nathan Latka

15:27We're obviously certain certainly rooting for you. That'd be great if you could hit that. Could we also can we can we take the 200 paying customers times the 30,000 average ACV you told me earlier to multiply those to get a revenue figure of around 6,000,000 today? Would that be fair?

Niclas Lilja

15:43>> It would be fair. It's on the lower side, but yeah. Maybe it's 30 yeah. Something. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

15:5230% too low?

Niclas Lilja

15:56>> No. The 30 k per customer is probably 31 or 32. I know something, but when you multiply with 200, it's still sort of become something. So so so I would say around, like, 6,500,000 US dollars, something like that.

Famous Five: Tools, Books, and Habits

Nathan Latka

16:11Well, congratulation congratulations on what you've built. As we wrap up here, I think you've also done this fairly capitally efficiently. How much have you raised to date?

Niclas Lilja

16:22>> Around 10,000,000 US dollars, but I think we're trying to keep it as sort of a one to one on our own AR.

16:31>> And I think it's looking fairly good to to to do that as well.

Nathan Latka

16:36So is it fair to say

Niclas Lilja

16:37>> you probably won't test efficient. You know better.

Nathan Latka

16:40Yeah. Is it fair to say then you probably won't go out to test the equity markets until you get your 6,000,000 ARR up to 10,000,000 AR. So you're raised to AR as one to one?

Niclas Lilja

16:51>> Yeah, maybe. At least I think going above like eight or something. Yes, we'll see. I mean, I think it's heavily dependent on markets as well. I think we have lots of more things we wanna do, but we wanna do it with, you know, good timing. Yep. Let's see when that is.

Nathan Latka

17:15Great. Well, hey, let's wrap up here, Nicholas, with a famous five. Number one, what's the software tool that you pay the most for?

Niclas Lilja

17:23>> I pay the most for over the years, it was Swara.

17:31>> Zohra, fair enough.

Nathan Latka

17:33Number two, who's the last CEO you had coffee with?

Niclas Lilja

17:40>> It was a guy on Friday in the Philadelphia area called Gene Botick. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

17:47Which is company or her company?

Niclas Lilja

17:51>> So he's with g squared. He's an he does outsource finance and CFO, fractional CFO.

Nathan Latka

17:58Ah, great. Very local.

18:00That's good. Number three, is there a favorite book, a software book or business book that you have?

Closing Summary

Niclas Lilja

18:12>> I know I really enjoyed the book First Break for All the Rules. I don't remember the author now, but I both like the title, and I did like a lot of the content as well,

18:24>> and that it has doesn't have to be just one way, maybe. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

18:27Great. And, Nicolas, how many hours of sleep are you getting every night?

Niclas Lilja

18:33>> I'm actually good at eight, I would say.

Nathan Latka

18:36That's that's healthy.

Niclas Lilja

18:37>> Small kids.

Nathan Latka

18:38How many see, I was gonna say, what's your situation? Married, single kids?

Niclas Lilja

18:43>> Married, two kids, 10 and 12. They are starting to, like, you know, sleep in in the morning.

18:51>> But in all honesty, I think it's also a very good thing for me. I feel like I'm doing better things.

Nathan Latka

18:59That's great. How

19:01how old are you, Nicholas?

Niclas Lilja

19:03>> How old I am?

Nathan Latka

19:05You?

Niclas Lilja

19:06>> 45.

19:07Last

19:07>> question.

Nathan Latka

19:0845.

19:0945. Something you wish you knew when you were 20.

Niclas Lilja

19:12>> That people around you don't care so much about what you do. They are very much obsessed with what they are doing. They keep on doing what you do. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

19:22Guys, he's cut his teeth for many years in b to b SaaS. He used Zohra back at his last company and said there's gotta be a better way to bill enterprise customers and track things like net retention, etcetera. He's now selling Unium directly to CFO, started off cold calling back in 2017, got his first customer. Now the team is 60 full time, 20 engineers, six quota carrying sales reps, 200 paying customers, and an average ACV of

19:44around 30 k. They're moving up market past $6,000,000 of ARR and ended up pretty capital efficient with just $10,000,000 raised as they look to continue to scale. Nicholas, thanks for taking us to the top.

Niclas Lilja

19:54>> Thank you so much. What a summary.