How Inflectra Reached $13M ARR and 5,500 Customers While Staying Bootstrapped (Interview with Founder and CEO Adam Sandman)

Introduction and Company Overview

Nathan Latka

00:00InFlexure was launched in 2007. They serve customers like large defense contractors, supply chain companies, mix of on prem and cloud solutions. They'll do a million dollars per month in revenue, up from 830,000 a month just a year ago. So nice growth serving 5,500 customers. Many customers pay have several 100,000 per year, which is great. Nice expansion there. And he's done this all bootstrapped was incredible by Adam. He owns a 100% of the business company will profit

00:24call it 5% this year as he looks to continue to scale. We'll see what happens next. Hey folks, my guest today is Adam Sandman who founded Inflectra in 2006. He's been a programmer since the age of 10. Today, serves as the company's CEO. He's responsible for product strategy, technology, innovation and business development. He lives in Washington DC with his family. Adam, you ready to take us to the top?

Adam Sandman

00:46>> Yep. I'm ready.

What Inflectra Does and Who It Serves

Nathan Latka

00:47Alright. So Inflectra helps customers deliver quality software. What does that mean?

Adam Sandman

00:53>> Oh, an engineer would say quality is fitness for purpose. But for us, what it means is keeping the world running. I mean, that's what our team does every day. That's what our passion is. We work with companies that are in the biospace, utilities, energy companies, literally every sector of the economy that you rely on to get to work every day, to have power in your house, to clean water. We work with those kind of companies to

01:13>> make sure all of the IT systems they have work as they should and going forward in the future anticipate risks that might come so that, you know, as the world evolves and changes, they're ready to address those risks. So that's what we're that's what we're here for.

Nathan Latka

01:27And we spoke back in May 2022. You told me your biggest customers are large defense contractors and supply chain companies, a mix of on prem and cloud. Is that still the case?

Adam Sandman

01:36>> Yep. That is definitely still the case. A lot of bio companies, I think, have added into the mix, but definitely a lot of aerospace. When I see a defense, a lot of aerospace companies, but also maritime and but large platform companies are making big hardware as well as companies working in the supply chain manufacturing space, automotive aerospace, but also general manufacturing as well, IoT and those sort of sectors.

Customer Base and Verticals Update Since 2022

Nathan Latka

01:59Let's sort of fast forward the past twelve to eighteen months. I want to talk about sort of how you thought about product. Obviously, we're in a very different economic climate today than we were in May 2022. Curious how you've changed or pivoted, I guess. But first, have you decided to sort of expand with the current customers you had back a year and a half ago? You had about 5,000 of you told me, or have you focused

02:18on expanding into new accounts?

Adam Sandman

02:20>> That's a great question. And we've done a bit of both, but a lot of it has expanding into adjacent buying points in the same customer as well as referrals and partnerships. So finding working with partners at Broadus Deals and finding more deals with them, and then obviously looking at larger customers and finding adjacent buying points or following referrals where, you know, oftentimes people are consultants. They move from organization to organization, and they bring us in into

02:44>> those organizations. And that's been a large part of the, you know, direct sort of sales as well as partnership sales. And then, of course, we're still looking for new buying points that fit our ideal target client. One thing I think we've done a better job of in the last eighteen months has been defining our ideal client. We we spent a lot of work this year on messaging and message development, and our website is still in the

03:03>> midst of that transition if you go to it. So it's you'll see it's in evolving state. But really trying to hone down what is our ideal customer, what is our USP at a much more at a much more deep level. Not just the technology that sells, you know, quality software, but what is our client trying to do? Which clients do we find resonate the most? And then putting our resources into those clients rather than chasing everyone

Growth Strategy Over the Past 18 Months

Adam Sandman

03:22>> under the sun. Mhmm. So I think when it comes to the new sales, really hoeing down obviously, we'll be opportunistic if someone comes to us, but not spending resources and not prospecting and not, you know, focusing outside of that core as much as we might have done, you know, eighteen months ago.

Nathan Latka

03:35So I'm curious how much you've grown over the past eighteen months, and then I wanna drive deeper into how you decided what ICP to go after because you had a huge bucket of customers to choose from. Right? So what has growth looked like the past twelve to eighteen months?

Adam Sandman

03:45>> It's been about a year of a period of a period about 25%. So we would hope to be actually higher about, I think, 35%, I may have said. So it's been a little bit lower than we'd we'd hoped. But what we the reason for that number one reason has been

Nathan Latka

03:59Well, just to be clear, Adam. Sorry. Just to give everyone a number. So you said I think you were about $10,000,000 run rate last time we spoke. Would put you at about twelve, thirteen today. Is that right?

Adam Sandman

04:06>> That's right. That's right. That's right. So we were hoping for a little bit higher, but I think what we found is that the sales cycles this last this year, particularly, a little bit less than last year, have extended. Typically, our sales cycle is sixty to ninety days. A lot of deals are taking thirty to sixty days longer than that. And mostly it's not in the buyers. It's the procurement. It's the legal and the compliance. A lot

04:29>> of those stages are taking just incredible amounts of time.

04:33>> The client says, Yes, we want to buy the tool. We've, you the CTO, the CIO, the VP of engineering, whoever the stakeholders has said, Yes. All the bureaucracy now takes another sixty days longer than it did a year ago. A lot of it's budget. A lot of it's also compliance, security, cyber, GDPR and privacy. A lot of things just seem to be taking longer, and it's hard to move those wheels of bureaucracy. Also, as I you

04:56>> know, we're dealing with these large regulated industries where it's much harder to exert pressure on them because they have a cadence for buying software and validating it and doing all the, like, the compliance stuff that you can't really accelerate.

Nathan Latka

05:06So what does that mean for today? Still serving up 5,000 customers or slightly more?

Adam Sandman

05:10>> More yeah. More than that. I think it's about 10% more than that.

Nathan Latka

05:13Okay.

Adam Sandman

05:14>> Because, obviously, we've got we've added a lot of existing, you know, deals and cross selling into our other customers.

Nathan Latka

05:20Oh, what's going on there, YouTube? Good to see you guys. Now imagine this. You love watching these interviews with SaaS founders, but imagine if we took all of the valuation data out from over 2,807 interviews I've done manually. Saves you a lot of time. Well, we've done this. We've built it into the beautiful interface inside of Founder Path. Check this out.

Revenue Growth and Extended Sales Cycles

Nathan Latka

05:39>> I'll show you how

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06:03is because depending on who's doing the buying of your SaaS company, you're gonna get a different valuation. A VC is gonna pay a different valuation, Private equity firm is different. If you're gonna do a minority sale, that's different. And if you sell the whole business, that's a different valuation. You can see all those when I hover over here. Right? So the teal is what a VC would pay. Yellow is what private equity And red is if

06:25you sold the whole thing outright. Now what's cool about this is this is not built off random data. Again, you guys hear these interviews on YouTube. All these datas are built from real time valuation data points founder share with us on the show. So traction, 1,200,000 seed round, 3.7 raise. They sold 22% of their business. Go in here and filter by the event. Maybe you only wanna see companies that have sold the whole business. Well, here

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Ideal Customer Profile and LTV Focus

Nathan Latka

07:40right inside the platform. I hope to see you there. Alright. Let's jump back into the interview. Yep. So caught Futtman be 5,500 today. Now, again, there's a lot of people right now sitting on a customer base of a 2,000, but they want less customers that pay more. What process did you go through to figure out what customers you wanna serve? A lot of people would say, just download from Stripe. I sort from which customers have paid

08:00me the most to the least, and then I go find more that pay me the most.

Adam Sandman

08:03>> So we what we've done, did we've done a two factors two factors. One is we have some older clients that were on older pricing that we've been ratcheting up, and that by natural attrition, we'll we'll do that. The second thing is we found that we wanted clients that would have a longer LTV with us, Customers that are going to be with us for five to ten years because of the onboarding time takes time, the training. It's

08:22>> a wealthy complex suite, and that we find that customers after the first year will stay with us for five to six years, but if the first one or two years are rocky, they'll leave. So we want to find customers that really align with the with the com with the product, and not just the the product they might buy, but the product suites they can upgrade. And what we found is if we look at the sectors and

08:40>> the types of customer, it's customers that have a degree of compliance needs, but yet also need to be agile. So we we looked at the world in two lenses, which is the agile DevOps fast paced technology companies. We look at these industries that are very traditional with lots of compliance needs. And we find the cases where the clients are trying to make a move for a digitized future, but they have these regulations. These are our most

09:01>> qualified clients. So think of a life science company that's got a a relatively new medical device that they wanted to deliver in a very agile way and take the market by storm, but they've got to get FDA approval in three years, five years, whatever it is. So they they have to have a well defined software system like ours. They can't just wing it together using spreadsheets or, you know, other tools. So that's a great example of

09:21>> a client that we we would now proactively target. And then similarly, clients in the manufacturing space that, again, they want to digitize their future. They want to be able to deliver software defined vehicles, software defined manufacturing. So they want to be agile and differentiate, but they also need to follow all the process they already have. Whereas a client that's never gonna change, we don't want them as much. Or a client that's just, you know, is IT

09:43>> company that's just gonna release software, change tools every year. They're they're they're not gonna be a long term customer with us, or they're certainly not gonna expand and grow and be the reference that we would need. Want clients that only want to be a customer, but evangelize to other customers for

Nathan Latka

09:56us. And so when you look at your concentration at the top of your book today, like, obviously, I don't name who they are, the logos, but your top customers say, do you have anyone paying the $500,000 per year? What's the top cost what's the top group of customers paying?

Adam Sandman

10:07>> Yeah. So the largest defense type companies are probably paying I have to get the numbers. Somewhere in the I guess, if you look at across all their buying points, a couple $100,000 a year, that will be and then mostly the large defense companies or aerospace companies. And then from there, you're gonna go down into the large biotech, large IT companies, manufacturing that are paying 50,000, $6,070,000 a year. And there's a large there is a there is

10:30>> a large tail of the people paying 12 to 15,000, 15,000 a year, which obviously forms the base of the pyramid.

Nathan Latka

10:37So you're not a sales guy, but if you wanna go target the folks paying $1,012,000 per year and get them up to $5,060,000 dollars per year, what does that look like? Are you putting another product in front of them? Are you asking them to buy more seats in the same in the same business unit? Or how does that look?

Adam Sandman

10:49>> It's both. It's first of all identifying additional personas in this that use that in their organization that would use additional features. And that's why we actually have three flavors of our product. So we don't just even though it's really one product, we sell it in three distinct flavors, which target different personas.

Nathan Latka

11:03What are the three? One, two, three.

Adam Sandman

11:05>> Oh, sorry. SparoTest, SparoTeam, and SparoTplan. One product. One's for QA audience. One is for a, like, an agile engineering team. One is gonna be for a PMO, program management, risk management team. You sell to the QA team first. You can then expand it to the dev team, to the wider the team that's using the tool, and then you can go up the ladder to the PMO, this managing team of teams, that and way you're expanding from

11:28>> 15,000 a year to, you know, 75,000 a year. Mhmm. Then we have a second product, which is an automation suite, more specialized. We don't go into that to try and sell to customers as standalone because the cost of sales is much higher. The type of POC's, all of the the things you have to do to sell is much more complicated. But we've when you've got a qualified client on our primary platform, we can cross sell that

11:47>> very effectively.

Nathan Latka

11:48How do do that, Adam? Do you have a sales rep that is dedicated to the customer that is responsible for upselling product two and product three, or is there an a different sales team per product line?

Adam Sandman

11:57>> We do we we used to do it per product. We changed it to per industry. So when you sign up for us because of the discontinuity. So what happened is you bought product one. I I get to know you, know your problems, hand you off to product to person two, hand you off to customer success. So we've gone to an account management model by industry and by region. So if you're in North America and in aerospace,

12:15>> you'll get one person. If you're in North America, in health care, you get someone else. If in Europe, you get someone else.

Nathan Latka

12:19Across all of those. So then your sales team has to be well educated in all three product lines. They can't be a specialist That's in right.

Adam Sandman

12:25>> Now, obviously, we do have pre sales engineers who can, you know, augment their knowledge. But, yes, they have to know all the products, and they have to know at least two or three industries. We're not big enough to have one person in the industry. As we get bigger, you would expect to be of an industry, know, knowledge as well. So we're taking so our salespeople have to be technically smart, know sales, and also understand the industries

Three Product Flavors and Upsell Motion

Adam Sandman

12:44>> they serve, which is quite a big ask. Mhmm.

Nathan Latka

12:46Interesting. Do you when you recruit sales reps, do you recruit them from the specific industry that you want them to then sell to, or do you just go find the best salesperson you can that knows how to hit quota?

Adam Sandman

12:57>> We've most of the latter, and then we find the industries that they will fit best with. And and that seems to work best. Some of com

Nathan Latka

13:04Okay. Just to clear, you find great sales reps

Adam Sandman

13:06>> and teach them more about the industry. We're not hiring a finance person. Yeah. We're not hiring a bio person. We have somebody who knows these kind of products is really good, good at communication, good at closing, good at following through, and then they'll learn the industry stuff.

Nathan Latka

13:18I see. How many folks are full time today?

Adam Sandman

13:21>> Right now, about fifty, fifty five, I think.

Nathan Latka

13:24How many carry a quota?

Adam Sandman

13:26>> We don't don't carry individual quotas. We have a t we have a company quota, and we everyone's paid salary. We don't do any commissions. That's one unique feature.

Nathan Latka

13:33So how many are on the sales team?

Adam Sandman

13:36>> Of the 55, including if you exclude customer success and you exclude partnerships, I think it's about 15.

Nathan Latka

13:44Okay. One five. And how many are actually writing writing pushing code every month? Engineers?

Adam Sandman

13:48>> Oh oh, sorry. Code. Team size across both the two platforms. That's five plus five fifteen to about 20.

Nathan Latka

13:5720. Interesting. Yeah. So did I hear you I hear you're doing the math. Did you sort of put five engineer do engineers work on all three products or do you put five engineers on product one, five on two, three?

Adam Sandman

14:06>> Five is on product one and there is another fifth 10 to fifth 10 on the other core product. And there's another five that do like add ons extensions and, you know, the

Nathan Latka

14:14But you let them specialize in that same product. They don't switch between products once and once.

Adam Sandman

14:19>> Yes. That's correct. That's correct. 100%.

Nathan Latka

14:20Very interesting. Okay. Why no quotas?

Adam Sandman

14:24>> Team colla we found that team collaboration is the key. We we did try it years ago, and what we found is that my deal or your deal, we're not gonna work together. And because the the products are complicated and the industries often intersperse, and we have multinational companies, we if you got a sales team in the EMEA who's working with a sales team in North America sorry, salesperson in North America, we want them to collaborate. We

14:43>> don't wanna fight together who's gonna get the target, and that was the main reason.

Nathan Latka

14:47Very interesting. You last year, you were bootstrapped. Are you still bootstrapped today?

Adam Sandman

14:51>> We are. We've had many offers, and we've we've talked to companies. We're not in the market yet, maybe

Nathan Latka

14:56What's what's what's the most interesting offer you got? Don't name the company, but what was the price? Like, would they say, wanna buy you for a $100,000,000 or what?

Adam Sandman

15:02>> There's ones that wanna do probably less than that now because the evaluations are down a bit. Ones that want to merge one is interesting. One that wants us to be part of a manufacturing, very, very industry vertical approach. Other ones want us to go, you know, very horizontal across all industries.

Nathan Latka

15:18What was the highest offer you got, though, Adam, that you rejected?

Adam Sandman

15:21>> We honestly, we haven't got to a firm firm offer. So that they're they're all talking, you know, six x, eight x, I would say, but we hadn't got

Nathan Latka

15:27into So 60,000,000, 80,000,000, Yeah, yeah, something like Right, exactly. So who someone's listening right now, they really love you. They really wanna partner with you or buy or whatever. What is the right partner for you? What are you looking for?

Adam Sandman

15:39>> For a partner, it will be a a firm that that has a service offering, a consulting firm that wants to expand their business, that wants to be able to extend their range of services, and is willing to not just sell a product, but also build an offering at their company around that service.

Nathan Latka

15:53I see. And you would consider something between an 80,000,000 and a $100,000,000 all cash offer today?

Sales Team Structure and No-Commission Model

Adam Sandman

15:58>> Oh, sorry. When you say partnership, I think you meant to partner with the company to acquire us. Strategic alignment and cultural alignment is number one. And then the other stuff, yes. We can negotiate on equity or cash. I have to say the number one thing is cultural alignment. Yep. All the people here would wanna work it has to be someone that we all wanna work for or at least hand over the company to.

Nathan Latka

16:16I don't

Adam Sandman

16:17>> wanna How much

Nathan Latka

16:18equity does the team own today? What's the ESOP pool you've set up?

Adam Sandman

16:20>> 10%, 15 No.

16:21>> Actually, none. It's there's no I'm a solo owner.

Nathan Latka

16:24That's awesome. Okay. So you own a 100%. Do they have like Phantom shares or anything?

Adam Sandman

16:27>> We'll we will do that when we if we if once we start yeah. The plan is once we get near an offer, an actual offer, we would do that. Exactly. That's exactly right. We do a Phantom stock plan.

Nathan Latka

16:35Adam, this is very sensitive, but you are very rich on paper. Right? Do you already have some exit where you're able to go buy the house you want, build a family vacation when you want? Like, how do you diversify your net worth out of your SaaS company? A little bit.

Adam Sandman

16:46>> Yeah. Great. I mean, I will be I have first of I have rental I have real estate rental real estate, which is great because it's a nice cash generating asset that's low lower growth, but very, again, very safe and gives you that diversification.

Nathan Latka

16:57How many beds how many beds do you have in your in your real estate portfolio?

Adam Sandman

17:01>> Three three single family houses.

Nathan Latka

17:03Okay. Great.

Adam Sandman

17:05>> Plus my own house. We live in a house that we love. The kids have gone are in college, almost finished, so that's all paid for. So there's not a ton I need. It's more it's more the fun of the chase.

Nathan Latka

17:14There you go.

17:15>> He he keeps his expenses low and makes some money off his real estate, which is great. That's nice nice nice position to be in.

17:19Now are you guys do you operate right at breakeven, is the company 10% profitable today? 20% profitable?

Adam Sandman

17:24>> Depending on the year, zero to 10. Some year to 10%. Some to some years, we close to breakeven.

Nathan Latka

17:29What do think this year will be?

Adam Sandman

17:32>> I would say around five percent just because we Okay. The rate rate's a bit lower than we'd hoped.

Nathan Latka

17:36I mean, still 5% profit on 13,000,000 AR. I mean, that's $500,000 of profit this year.

Adam Sandman

17:40>> That's pretty good. Right. Right. Right. And that that's good. You know, we we want to reinvest it. We don't want sit on cash. That makes sense.

Nathan Latka

17:44Yep. Yep. Yep. Very cool. If you do, you just go buy another investment home. Right?

Adam Sandman

17:49>> Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. My my wife's nice. She she wants to go to California, so who knows?

Nathan Latka

17:52Get out

Adam Sandman

17:53>> there to rent out and then move there up because it's gonna fall California. Who knows?

Nathan Latka

17:56That's awesome, Adam. Alright. Let's wrap up here with the famous five. Number one, a book you're reading right now.

Adam Sandman

18:01>> Oh, I just finished reading it's called The Glass Hotel. I forget the name of the author. It's a New York author. She also it's really, really good it's a really good book. I I really enjoyed reading it. I'm also reading another book by David Mitchell called oh god. It's about Utopia Avenue. It's about a rock a fictitious rock band from the nineteen sixties, which is just a great read. He's a great writer. He did Cloud Atlas,

18:23>> did Bone Clocks. I love all of his stuff.

18:25>> Amazing.

Nathan Latka

18:26Number two is there a CEO you're following or studying?

Adam Sandman

18:30>> Oh, jeez. I always like Richard Branson Yep. Just because he's but think I said that last time.

Nathan Latka

18:35That's okay. You can say it again. Number three, what's your favorite online tool for building the business?

Adam Sandman

18:40>> Right now, instantly. I love instantly. We just started using that to cold emails and prospecting, and it combines the best of Apollo and ZoomInfo and a bunch of tools, so I love instantly.

Nathan Latka

18:49Guys, if you wanna hear the Instantly story, search Latka instantly on your podcast app or on YouTube. We had them on the show. They went from 0 to $2,400,000 run rate very quickly, starting off as an agency model moving into SaaS. Really cool story there. Glad you glad you liked that, Adam. Number number four, how many hours of sleep do get every night?

Adam Sandman

19:04>> Eight.

Nathan Latka

19:05Okay. Good. And six

Bootstrapped Ownership and Acquisition Interest

Adam Sandman

19:06>> When I was jet lagged. Except when I jet lagged. Came back from Dubai, I was wake sleeping and waking two in the morning. Sorry.

Nathan Latka

19:10Do you have customers in Dubai?

Adam Sandman

19:12>> Yes. We do. We just closed our first one a week after the conference, actually.

Nathan Latka

19:15Wait. What was that like? I mean, is it same sales process as in The UK or The US?

Adam Sandman

19:20>> Small customer well, small companies in Dubai, like anywhere, they'll buy with a credit card easy. Large companies, you gotta have an office there, a presence there. You gotta do a lot more of in person.

Nathan Latka

19:28What's the what's the inflection point? Anything below 10,000 contract value, credit card?

Adam Sandman

19:32>> Yeah. Sounds about right. And also, is it is it a government enterprise or is it like a private small like, a lot a lot of firms, are Indian companies that have set up shop there or or or of other companies. Those private companies, easy to sell to you. 10,000, 15,000. Government entity that's building out a large part of the infrastructure, that's a whole different beast.

Nathan Latka

19:48Interesting. Okay. So married, two kiddos, they're off college. I believe you had a birthday, so you're 48 now?

Adam Sandman

19:54>> December 4. So coming up. Not yet. Almost.

Nathan Latka

19:57Okay. So still 47?

Adam Sandman

19:58>> Mhmm.

Nathan Latka

19:59Alright. Very good. So 47 years old. Last question. Something you wish you knew when you were 20.

Adam Sandman

20:05>> Raising kids is a bit of pain, but we love them.

20:11>> Don't don't worry about what other people think of you. Do what you do what you enjoy, do what you love, and don't let people tell you can't do it. That's why, yeah, that's what I would say.

Nathan Latka

20:19I love that guys. And Flexure was launched in 2007. They serve customers like large defense contractors, supply chain companies, mix of on prem and cloud solutions. They'll do a million dollars per month in revenue, up from 830,000 a month just a year ago. So nice growth serving 5,500 customers, many customers pay have several 100,000 per year, which is great, nice expansion there. He's done this all bootstrapped, which is incredible by Adam. He owns a 100% of

20:43the business. Company will profit, call it 5% this year as he looks to continue to scale. We'll see what happens next. Adam, thanks for taking us to the top.

Adam Sandman

20:50>> Thanks so much, Nathan. Have a good one.

Nathan Latka

20:52One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM Central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers, they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday 1PM

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22:01for that at nathanlakka.com/slack. In the meantime, I'm hanging out with you here on YouTube. I'll be in the comments for the next thirty minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode. If you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up. We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, but I do it so that we can all learn. We have to counter those people. We got

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22:27>> See you.