How Jotform Reached 10,000,000 Users and 400 Employees Bootstrapped with No Outside Funding (Interview with VP of Enterprise Operations Steve Hartert)

Introduction to Steve Hartert and Jotform

Nathan Latka

00:00Hey folks, my guest today is Steve Hartert. He's the vice president of enterprise operations at Jotform with responsibilities that include marketing, brand and corporate partnerships. Before Jotforming as president at Hartert and Associates, a marketing consultancy that work with B2B and B2C SaaS companies, he's got more than thirty years of experience in the space with companies like the Walt Disney Company, Ministry of Transport in Australia, and Blue Cross CA. Alright. Jotform.com. Steve, you're ready to take us

00:23to the top.

Steve Hartert

00:24>> Let's go for it.

How Hartert Joined Jotform in 2016

Nathan Latka

00:26Now just so you understand the origin story here, you were not an original cofounder. Right? How did you get involved? What year?

Steve Hartert

00:32>> I've been with Jotform since March 2016, that's when I started working here. I started off in the marketing side, helping them build up the marketing department as a CMO. And then about, I guess about four years ago now, we decided we wanted to start up a new division for enterprise and was kind of asked to head up that part of it. And as that grew, I kind of had to leave the marketing marketing side side of

01:00>> alone, and then kind of move over to help grow this new division. And so I think if you looked at the headcount, I'm going to say I was, I'm probably in the first 50 employees that were hired for the company. So I've seen us grow from,

Team Growth from 50 to 400 Employees

Steve Hartert

01:13>> from where we were to we're closing in on 400 employees now.

Nathan Latka

01:19That's incredible. I mean, and just to put that in revenue terms, mean, you joined before you guys broke $40,000,000 in ARR. You're over 100,000,000 now today, right?

Steve Hartert

01:29>> I can't comment on revenue.

Nathan Latka

01:31Oh, those are public. That 100,000,000 number you guys put out in a press release, I believe. Let me pull up let me pull up the source on that and read it. Hold on. Okay. Let me make sure I'm getting that right. But point being though, you've seen revenue growth and not just headcount growth, you've also, you know, watched significant revenue growth as well.

Steve Hartert

01:47>> Oh, yeah. We've we've seen incredible revenue growth across all aspects.

Revenue Growth and Bootstrapped Model

Nathan Latka

01:53So let's go and talk about that, right? So you're obviously competing in a space. There's a lot of venture backed companies, right, in your same space. There's some also that are bootstrapped, very capital efficient. What's been your guys'go to market? How have you grown the user base?

Steve Hartert

02:06>> We're bootstrapped. We've never taken a dime of any investor money anywhere. So all our growth has been purely organic. And what we focused on really is delivering a good, solid, high quality product, right? And making the user experience good. But our marketing has really been revolving around SEO. We have really kind of planted our flag on the SEO side. And I've used that and leveraged that tremendously across all different types of platforms. I mean, not only

Go-to-Market Strategy and SEO Focus

Steve Hartert

02:37>> just in, you know, like say traditional text types of content, but also video content has been very big for us also.

Nathan Latka

02:44What does that mean? How you think about video SEO?

Steve Hartert

02:47>> Well, I mean, video, you can use the descriptions inside of things like YouTube and other types of channels. And then the video is what helps draw people in. So you can use things like a transcript of what your video is, whether it's a two minute demo video or a four or five minute newsletter video, or a very much of a long form type of a podcast video, those kinds of things. You can include those transcripts in

03:11>> different places and that helps drive the SEO trip.

Nathan Latka

03:14Now I'm on the YouTube page, your guys'YouTube page today. It looks like you guys post things like how to create a property listing online, how to start an online clothing business from home, three widgets that will help you increase form completion rate. How do you guys come up with what things to put in the title? Obviously, there's search traffic research going into that.

Steve Hartert

03:32>> Well, a lot of it is, yeah, a lot of it's brainstorming internally, but we also look at what our customers are asking for through our support channel, right? So if they're asking just to support, I want to do this, how do I do that? And so we'll come back and we'll just start looking at that and go, well, how can we build some video around that? Or how can we build some kind of content around that?

03:50>> And as a result, and it helps drive all of our other materials that come with it. And the benefit of things like the video is they have very long shelf lives. I mean, those things can last several years as far as an item goes versus something like just say an article that could be posted. The shelf life might be just a couple of months and then that gets kind of archived, but video lives forever basically.

Video SEO Playbook and YouTube Strategy

Nathan Latka

04:13Oh, what's going on there, YouTube? Good to see you guys. Now imagine this, you love watching these interviews with SaaS founders. But imagine if we took all of the valuation data out from over 2,807 interviews I've done manually, Saves you a lot of time. Well, we've done this. We've built it into the beautiful interface inside of Founder Path. Check this out. I'll show you how you can access this in a second, but you log in, you

04:36connect your Stripe account, you see your valuation real time. You can see what it changed over the past eighty eight days and even set goals for valuation this year. Now the secret evaluation is there's many different ways to value a SaaS business. So the reason you're gonna see three or four different valuations inside of your Founder Path dashboard, this is all free by the way, is because depending on who's doing the buying of your SaaS company,

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06:36into the interview. That makes sense. Okay. So there's a video playbook here. There's an SEO playbook here. What does your SEO team look like today? And is it in house or outsourced?

SEO Team Structure and Regional Targeting

Steve Hartert

06:45>> It's all internally.

Nathan Latka

06:47So how many folks did you say are on that team and what are sort of the roles look like?

Steve Hartert

06:51>> Well, mean, we've a couple of dozen people that are doing on the SEO side, but I mean, really what it comes down to is they look at, they're constantly pouring over those are the keywords that people are looking at, how they're finding us, what types of phrases they're looking for, not only just in a general sense, but also based on a regional type of situations are from different geographies that we're looking at people say in The

07:12>> Middle East versus the EU versus North America versus Asia or the APAC region, those types of things. We kind of build our SEO around those types of locations. And so we can actually kind of identify little pockets of populations that are looking for specific types of forms. And then around that, then we can wrap content around that that helps address those SEO components.

Pricing Plans and Freemium Model

Nathan Latka

07:33Yep. And when you and I spoke actually, you were right. Because it was back in 2017 when we last spoke. So a while ago, you had told me that customers could get on an average of paying about $300 a month for JotForm. Has that stayed pretty consistent? Is the ARPU still about $300 a year?

Steve Hartert

07:48>> Again, I'm not gonna comment specific dollars on revenue, but I mean, our our revenue base has continued to grow as we've added

Nathan Latka

07:55Sorry. Sorry.

Steve Hartert

07:56>> Added on top of this.

Nathan Latka

07:57I'm not asking about revenue. I'm talking about if someone listening right now, I'm trying to help them market here. Someone listening right now wants to use JotForm, what are they gonna probably pay on average per month?

Steve Hartert

08:05>> Well, I mean, again, they can use our single plans or what we call our bronze silver gold plans, are our single user plans. And those are listed on the website, they go anywhere high as $99 a month, $39 a month for our bronze plans. And if they want to move up to our enterprise plans, again, there's a minimum of five users on that and that starts to about $7,200 a year for that without having compliance and

08:28>> things like that. It depends on what your needs are as of as part is what somebody's actually gonna be investing in the product.

Nathan Latka

08:35Okay. But the cheapest price, but I just heard you mention, was $39 a month. So that's the starting point.

Steve Hartert

08:40>> Correct. Yeah. We also we're a freemium model. So we also have a free model or a free product that people can actually use. And like anything else, it's limited to a certain number of forms and submissions you get every month, but allows people to test it out, basically dip their toe in the water and see if the product works for them. And we find that people generally look at that. And then once they get that test,

08:59>> because it's low risk for them, they will jump all over it. Then they want to start moving up through our paid platforms. And again, it's consumption based. So the more you use it, the higher up in pricing tier somebody would have to move. But we found that people are very agreeable to that because allows them to actually find a pricing point that fits their needs.

Nathan Latka

09:19Mailchimp 2,000 free emails, product led growth is important. Obviously finding what the metric is and how much you give away free is challenging. I imagine obviously you're always testing this, but talk to me about the process you use to make sure what you give away in the free tool is just enough, but not too much.

Steve Hartert

09:35>> Yeah, mean, we also look at usage. We look at how people are using the product, how people are consuming it across all different platforms for us, right? It's domestically or in The US or it's somebody say in Canada, Italy, France, Australia, wherever, we look at how they're using it. So we've been able to identify kind of where this division is between what we would consider, say, kind of as a light user, that's a casual user, maybe

Free Plan Limits and Conversion Mechanics

Steve Hartert

10:00>> it's somebody that's a very small business or they just have very light needs to where somebody is actually using it to drive their business, whether it's e commerce or they're using it to take orders online or they're using it for taking reservations or something like that. And we've been able to identify where that division actually happens. And then so from that point, we've been able to kind of put in those pricing tiers as a result of

10:20>> that. So for example, our free plan, you're allowed up to five forms and you get 100 submissions a month per form. If somebody is, again, that's a fairly light kind of a user that doesn't have a lot of, maybe it's a small school, maybe it's a small nonprofit, something like that. You just don't have a lot of demand, but it works for you. But then again, as your business grows or as your organization grows, then you

10:42>> can just move up the plan ladder if that's what you need to do.

Nathan Latka

10:46And how many submissions performed you allow on the free plan?

Steve Hartert

10:50>> You get a 100 per

Nathan Latka

10:51A 100 per So if you have five forms, a 100 submission sheets, it's 500 submissions basically is the max.

Steve Hartert

10:56>> Well, yeah, in total. But I mean, get a 100 performs. If that form hits its 100, then it's basically that form kind of caps out for that much for you.

Nathan Latka

11:03I see. I see. And is that the most I mean, when you look at your no touch sales model, is it really that it's people hit that a 100 mark and then they convert no touch?

Steve Hartert

11:11>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because once they hit that, they'll log in and they'll get just a display pops up. If they're logged into our system, then they'll get a display that says, Hey, you've reached your maximum number of submissions for the month. To continue, you need to upgrade to our, that would be our bronze plan. And then at that point, then if they say yes, they can do it. Otherwise they can say, Well, you know what,

11:33>> I'll just go ahead and I'll start deleting out some of those older submissions from earlier in the month, or I'll export out a bunch of things or something. So it depends on how the user wants to do it. But we find that most people, once they get to that point, they realize this has become a valuable tool for their business. And the path for them to upgrade, they look at it and think this is a key

11:50>> component so they don't have a problem with wanting to do an upgrade at that point.

Nathan Latka

11:53And Steve, how do you look at this data coming in every month, every year, every week, you know, and basically go, okay, is a 100 the right number or should it be a thousand or should it be 10? Like, do reverse engineer and say, we want 5% of freezers to convert and then you just toggle by based off that? How do do that?

Steve Hartert

12:08>> We really just only what we do is we look at where that number is. We look at our numbers on a daily basis, sometimes several times a day, but we look at them on a daily basis and then we aggregate them across different geographies versus the timeframe. So we might look at what's going on in Australia on a monthly basis versus what's going on in Canada on a monthly basis, those kinds of things. But we find

12:28>> it's fairly consistent for us. Sometimes it depends on what the industry is somebody's using. So for example, during the last couple of years with COVID, healthcare use exploded, right? I mean, they needed it and desperately needed it because they suddenly had to go to no contact types of environments and things like that. But what we did for them is we said, Okay, look, if you're a verified healthcare provider, whether you're a doctor or a health clinic

12:57>> or a hospital, whatever, we gave it to you for free. We gave you one of our sober plans for free for, you know, for a year. So you could just get in there and do what you had to do, you know, to help people. So those kinds of things we look at, but then we also look at that and go, well, how are people consuming the product? And that's really what it comes back down to. And

User Growth from 3 Million to 10 Million

Steve Hartert

13:15>> so we always look at it, but we found that those are, the thresholds where people need to move us have remained consistent because we find that those seem to be pretty good barometers of how we want to move things along.

Nathan Latka

13:27Well, what is that barometer? Maybe this isn't specific to JotForm specifically, but when you look at like TiteForm others in the space and other just frankly PLG tools that have a big premium plan. What do you as a guy that just studies marketing like to see in terms of what you consider a good free to paid conversion rate? Is it 1%, 5%, 10%?

Steve Hartert

13:43>> Well, I think everybody wants to get it higher than they can. I mean, a good 5% is about the industry average.

Nathan Latka

13:49Seems like

Steve Hartert

13:50>> for a free and I'm talking about all SaaS products, not just in the form world. But a 5% conversion rate seems to be pretty solid for people and it varies. Some people can be even smaller because they can be down to one quarter, but they're, you know, they're, what they're trying to do is get as many people out of the pipe. So they're doing it on a volume basis, but about a 5% conversion rate is about,

14:10>> I think it's about the industry average. We, you know, we look at that to see how do we stack up against that industry. And again, it varies. Some months are better than others and some months, but everybody seems to kind of bubble along that certain 5% threshold.

Nathan Latka

14:24But true or false, if you had six months go by where you were at 4%, 4%, 4%, 4%, would you change something about the freemium paywall to try and get back up above five?

Steve Hartert

14:34>> No, not necessarily. I mean, we would look at it and go, is this thing that, is it just a certain industry? Is it some other kind of economic condition? Is it, you know, what would be causing that? But the point is we don't want to sit there and keep kind of adjusting that threshold because then it becomes confusing to our customers because they'll say, wait a second, last month it was this, this month it's that. And

14:53>> now you've got people all over the place on different kinds of tiers and that just leads to a lot confusion for people.

Nathan Latka

14:59Yep. Now, believe you guys did celebrate publicly on your blog. Guys Well, first off, when you joined, how many total users? Because you just celebrated a 10,000,000 milestone, right? So do remember what the growth is?

Steve Hartert

15:09>> As far as what do you mean growth When you joined in '26

Nathan Latka

15:12yeah. When you no. No. With just users. What you guys already published. Right? So when you joined in 2016, what was the total number of users?

Steve Hartert

15:18>> We were probably around I wanna say we're probably I think we had just done about 3,000,000 users.

Nathan Latka

15:24Okay. Wow. And then you guys celebrated 9,000,000, I believe, in 2020, and you announced 10,000,000 here this year.

15:30Is that correct?

Steve Hartert

15:31>> Correct.

Nathan Latka

15:32That's great. And so is that sort of the goal for this year, just keep adding a million new users per year?

Steve Hartert

15:38>> Actually, we're growing faster than that. Mean, numbers continue to climb. Mean, and again, the COVID world has really kind of turned the entire business industry on upside down. A lot of people came to us during the last two years because they just, they needed something and they needed a product that could actually help them collect information without having to be face to face with people like, you know, kind of the olden days were. So what they

16:05>> ended up doing was they just kind of went into almost like panic mode and they said, Hey, I need a free registration form. I need a patient intake form, things like that. And that's where SEO came into the mix and then helped drive the traffic to us and then convert those people to users and then eventually into paid users.

Nathan Latka

16:25And Steve, terms of price point of your cheapest plan today, 39 a month, was it always $39 or did you test $5 a month early on or $20 a month? What does that look like?

Steve Hartert

16:35>> We started it off at around, I think it was $19 a month at one point. I mean, have sales during the course of the year too. We'll have like a big end of year sale where we discount it. We also have a discount for nonprofits and education users, those types of things. But it's really come down to, as we look at what the competition's doing, we look at what our costs are, Because I mean, obviously you

Bootstrapping vs Going Public

Steve Hartert

16:57>> can't have a price from five years ago and have it be consistent today just because that, you know, our cost of business goes up as well as everybody else's goes up. So, but there's lot of things that we do. We don't want to be the cheapest on the block, but we also know we don't need to be the most expensive. We try to look at what we can offer a fair value to our customers and what

17:16>> we think is fair. And we have not had really complaints from customers if a price goes up, because what we do also is when people are on a previous plan, they grandfather in at that plant. So, or a pre grandfather in at that price. So they don't, they're not, our existing customer base does not really get impacted by price increases.

Nathan Latka

17:35Only gonna

Steve Hartert

17:36>> be new incoming types of customers.

Nathan Latka

17:38Yeah. And who would you, and you know, obviously, you don't wanna say market your competitors on the show, but just for my audience to understand the world you're playing in, I mean, who do you consider sort of in your same space?

Steve Hartert

17:47>> Well, I mean, some of the ones that we always run into, you got your form stacks and your type forms. Those are kind of the ones we always run into. I mean, there's Cognito forms and there's Wufoo come in the mix every so often, but we also run-in people that use Google forms and Microsoft forms, even though those two free products, what we have found people look at those and they, particularly Google Forms and Microsoft Forms,

18:10>> they say they're fairly limited in what they can do and they need something more sophisticated. And so they turn to us looking for assistance.

Nathan Latka

18:18Which of these two things, you've been at the company now for, well, approaching eight years, I think. Which of these two things do you think is more likely to happen first? The company bootstraps its way and breaks $150,000,000 of ARR, or the company bootstraps grows and decides, you know what, there's a big opportunity here, let's go public, raise money, maybe buy up competitors, grow faster. Which one do think is more likely?

Steve Hartert

18:39>> Probably the first one.

Nathan Latka

18:40I think the Okay, first so you

18:41guys love the bootstrapping.

Product Roadmap and No-Code Features

Steve Hartert

18:43>> Yeah, I mean, that's really kind of been our mantra since day one. That's our CEO's whole methodology to it. And it's worked great for us. I mean, some companies that doesn't work for them, but for us, it has been absolutely perfect. And there's definitely benefits to not having investor money on the side, because you just don't have a lot of competing interests from a board of directors perspective. We can look at things and we can talk

19:06>> as a group, determine what we want to do, and we can just focus on it. So if we need to turn on a dime, we don't need to justify it a board of directors or something like that. We can do what we need to do and get it done.

Nathan Latka

19:18Any product coming down the pipeline? If you guys have 10,000,000 users and you converted 5%, now this is probably high, but let's say you have 500,000 paid customers. If you sell them a $20 a month new product that goes nicely with their forms, that's a lot of revenue expansion. Do you have a second or third product coming down the pipeline?

Steve Hartert

19:34>> We're also looking at adding new features, but as far as new products go, I can't comment on what we've got in the pipeline, but we definitely always got new features coming up. So we're looking at different types of payment integrations. We're looking at making different types of backend feature adjustments for people like how to pull your data out, how to analyze your data better in the backend types of systems. So it's one thing to get all

19:55>> your data, but we want to have better tools in place to help people kind of analyze the data. So we've rebuilt our interfaces, so it looks almost like a spreadsheet type of model. So people can actually look at things easier, they can sort it out, they can, whatever types of parameters they want to work with, and then also push that data into other types of products, whether it's a CRM or something else that people want to

20:19>> work with. But it's making very easy to use dashboards, making it very, very user friendly, those types of things. So we're kind of taking the no code environment to heart on this and making it really, really simple for people to kind of customize their experience, not only in the front end where they're building forms, but also on the back end when they're trying to interpret all that data.

Nathan Latka

20:41Steve, last question here before we wrap up with a famous five, fill in the blank here. Sometime in the past six months, you tested x channel with $10,000 of spend and the results surprised you. What's x?

Billboard Advertising Experiment

Steve Hartert

20:53>> Billboards.

Nathan Latka

20:54Billboards. How do you even track a billboard conversion?

Steve Hartert

20:59>> Oh, you can do it. Just gotta be really gotta be good at it. I mean, because you can put them in certain regions and you don't just blast like you're in San Francisco where we're located, hit the entire Bay Area. You might just focus on a real specific neighborhood, down further south down towards Silicon Valley or a very specific neighborhood here in San Francisco itself. And you see what kind of response you get out of that.

21:22>> So you can, if you want to look at an individual billboard, unless you've got one, no. But if you can look at other billboards, you can look at a group of billboards and you can say, hey, look, this generated X amount of business for us. So there's potential in here.

Nathan Latka

21:36What does a monthly cost to get a big billboard in like San Mateo? I just have no idea. It's like $5 a month or are they really expensive?

Steve Hartert

21:42>> You know, it's all over the place. It's they're I can't give you a definitive price because it it varies on traffic size of billboard for how long you're gonna be there. So there's a whole lot

Nathan Latka

21:51of How do you even get that data? Do you do you work with a broker? Is there a website people go to? Like, you know, billboardpricing.com or?

Steve Hartert

21:57>> Oh, you go to the billboard company, usually it's like Clear Channel. The biggest beast on the block when it comes to billboards, but you can go to Clear Channel for example, and say, Hey, we're looking at this billboard on the street. Can you give us information on it? And again, it depends on the size of the board and whether which direction it's facing, those kinds of things, because it all comes down to eyeballs. And so you

22:21>> want to maximize your eyeballs that you're going to get on that thing. And so they can look at it and they know that how much traffic goes by at a given point during the day, how many times you're, if it's one of these electronic billboards where it's going to be revolving with other ads, you're going get these many types of placements of the day and things like that. So again, the price varies depending on really the

22:42>> specific geography where that billboard's going to be located up.

Nathan Latka

22:46Now I'm clicking through all the pictures of your billboards and Google image results. Jot form, powerful forms, purple background, white text, rock and roll. So very simple branding. That's nice. Okay, let's wrap up here with the famous five. Number one, favorite book.

Famous Five Rapid Fire Questions

Steve Hartert

23:02>> My favorite book, I've read so many lately, but I think probably one of my favorite books is the Walter Isaacson, Steve Jobs bio.

23:11>> Lot of really good business tips are in that book.

Nathan Latka

23:13Number two, is there a CEO you're following or studying?

Steve Hartert

23:17>> I still look to follow Tim Cook. The guy's got an incredible mind for business, and he's doing quite well there.

Nathan Latka

23:24Number three, what's your favorite online tool for building JotForm besides your own?

Steve Hartert

23:30>> For building JotForm?

Nathan Latka

23:32Like a business tool.

Steve Hartert

23:34>> Sheets.

23:35>> Yeah, okay.

Nathan Latka

23:36Number four, how many hours of sleep do get every night?

Steve Hartert

23:39>> About five.

Nathan Latka

23:40Okay, and Steve, what's your situation? Married, single, kiddos?

Steve Hartert

23:43>> I am married and we have a combined family. There's five total children in the family.

Nathan Latka

23:48Oh, wow. Okay, and how old are you?

Steve Hartert

23:50>> I'm 62 years old now.

Nathan Latka

23:5262 years young. Last question, something you wish you knew when you were 20.

Steve Hartert

23:58>> Just be better at financing from the business side of things is I wish I had paid more attention in my finance classes because money is what makes the world go round. As a marketer, the more you understand how money works, the better a marketer you really are.

Nathan Latka

24:11Mike Guys, there we have it. Steve joined Jotform back in the early days, 2016, when they were called around 3,000,000 users. Now today, over 10,000,000 users. He's trying to figure out, okay, let's make sure we get around a 5% conversion free to pay. That's what he calls industry average. But he's leading the marketing team there today as he continued to scale up into hundreds of thousands of customers, all bootstrapped, which we love. Steve, thanks for taking

Closing Thoughts and Wrap-Up

Nathan Latka

24:31us to the top.

Steve Hartert

24:32>> My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Nathan Latka

24:36One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers. They try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday 1PM

25:01Central. Additionally, remember these recorded founder interviews go live. We release them here on YouTube every day at 2PM Central. To make sure you don't miss any of that, make sure you click the subscribe button below here on YouTube, the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live. I wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the SaaS world, whether it's an acquisition, a big

25:23fundraise, a big sale, a big profitability statement or something else. I don't want you to miss it. Additionally, if you wanna take this conversation deeper and further, we have by far the largest private Slack community for B2B SaaS founders. You wanna get in there. We've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing. You can go in there and quickly search and see what people are saying. Sign up for

25:45that at nathanlatka.com/slack. In the meantime, I'm hanging out with you here on YouTube. I'll be in the comments for the next thirty minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode. And if you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up. We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, I do it so that we can all learn. We have to counter those people. We got to

26:05push them away. Click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that I appreciate your guys'support. Alright, I'll be in the comments. See you.

Steve Hartert

26:12>> Hey.