Mostly metrics Team Size (2023)

[00:00] Guys, he cut his teeth at an operating company as a private equity firm, also a PwC before that. Now runs a newsletter focused on CFOs of which he gets a 46% open rate, which is about 16,000 opens and a five to 7% click through rate, is 800 clicks per post called mostlymetrics.com hosted on Substack. 7,000 of those readers are actual CFOs. In fact, it's so valuable. We've got companies like Brex wanting to pay them $1.02, $3.04 [00:21] ks sort of per post from a sponsor perspective. He's looking to scale that now launched a podcast as well with turpentine still while cutting his teeth as an operator as a true CFO at a company called Parts Tech, which he's working on. Hey folks, my guest today is CJ Gustafson. He's a startup CFO who sat on both sides of the table, the one who's doing the funding and one who's receiving the funding. He's a fan of [00:41] business breaking, breaking down how businesses make money and writes about his learnings twice a week in his newsletter, mostlymetrics.com. Alright, CJ, ready to take us to the top? [00:51] >> Let's blast off, buddy. [00:53] Alright. So my audience really respects obviously folks that cut their teeth in the operating world. So what company were you sort of operating in learning that side of the equation? [01:00] >> Yeah, man. So I've been an operator for about ten years now. I was originally on the, you know, private equity and management consulting side where I learned a lot about business models, but I felt like a total financial tourist. I didn't really have skin in the game. And then when I moved over to get, you know, my quote real world MBA, I was at a backup and recovery software vendor and I was leading, you know, sales [01:22] >> ops and and FP and A, and that's kind of where I learned how to make the trains run on time. [01:26] Yep. So you have a very interesting background. So it's a big four PwC, then Providence Equity Partners for a year and a half. Providence Equity, is that usually majority buyout? [01:34] >> It is. Yeah. In tech technology and media space. [01:37] Yep. So did they buy a chunk of Veeam and that's why you jumped into Veeam? [01:41] >> No. I I had it's funny. The the connections you make when you're younger end up playing out, to help you in your career. So I had interned and I was completely useless, by the way. I basically got coffees and sandwiches for people at a company that was bought by VMware. And, this the CEO, ended up going over to this company, and and I called him one day for advice. And I was like, hey. I don't know [02:06] >> if I should go get another degree here. And he said, well, why don't you just come work for me? And since I went over and started to hang out with salespeople and learn about how you both sell and build a product, I've never left the operating side. [02:17] Got it. So Veeam Software through 2019, then a group called Snyk, I think it's how you say that, through 2022. [02:23] >> So kind of cybersecurity on that pre IPO path, and I I followed the same management team there, and I, helped build out the first FP and A group, and then we went through the whole craziness of of COVID and fundraising and and hyperscale. [02:38] Then you leave that in September 2022 and jump into sort of this this media empire you're building. Why did you make that decision, and what is the media empire? Who are you focused on audience wise? [02:47] >> Yeah. Of course. So I stumbled upon this. So I have a newsletter. It's mostlymetrics, mostlymetrics.com. And then I have a podcast. It's called Run the Numbers. It's produced by the Turpentine Network. Do they pay you for that [03:00] or do you pay them to be part of the network? [03:02] >> They pay me. So we have advertisers. So there are a couple of different monetization streams I can break down for each. But, basically, what I discovered was there wasn't an operator voice creating content out there specifically for, you know, the people who are in the trenches in kind of the office of the CFO. And for a while, was trying to just document what I was learning. And and Nathan, that's because people in the startup world will [03:26] >> pay you for the playbook that you have. You've taken a company from x to y to z. How do you do that now for my company too? And I was kind of scared shitless that I don't know if I can swear on this. Was scared if I I was scared that I was gonna forget what I was learning, so I started to document it. And eventually I found what I call audience market fit. It was a [03:43] >> bunch of people who were like me interested in the same stuff and it it took on a life of its own. It went from, you know, my mother and my dog and and my wife reading it to 35,000 people in about a year and a half. So first year and a half, I wrote nobody listened to me. [03:59] So when did you when did you launch it? When did you start writing? [04:02] >> I launched it in COVID in, I think, December 2020. [04:06] Okay. And how did you get your first thousand subscribers? [04:10] >> Oh, man. That was a grind. I was a nut. So I would write stuff and then I would find five keywords within it. So maybe I wrote about top metrics for vertical software and I would go on Twitter and I would maniacally just keep searching for, like, vertical software. And then I would write something insightful and then link back to my article. [04:26] You'd write something insightful in response to tweets that were already posted and link back? [04:30] >> Yeah. That's exactly what I would do. And then I got kicked out of just about every Reddit group trying to post stuff, like like many content creators do. And then, honestly, what helped was building inroads with b to b companies who were looking to promote their software in some way, but wanted a real person to speak to the merits of of using something. So, like, there are lot of FP and A tools out there. They all [04:53] >> have content arms or, like, there are a lot of payment companies like a Brex or a Ramp, and they all, you know, have content arms but they want to partner with people who are actually practitioners in the trenches and, you know, I was I was at first willing to, you know, do it for free for them and say, hey, you know, I'm trying to get my name out there, I enjoy writing and I have experience to [05:14] >> speak about stuff that'll resonate with people. It's not like you just hired somebody on Upwork to write it for you, and it doesn't really make sense. So partnering with businesses helped a lot. [05:24] Oh, what's going on there, YouTube? Good to see you guys. Now imagine this. You love watching these interviews with SaaS founders, but imagine if we took all of the valuation data out from over 2,807 interviews I've done manually. Saves you a lot of time. Well, we've done this. We've built it into the beautiful interface inside of Founderpath. Check this out. I'll show you how you can access this in a second, but you log in, you connect [05:47] your Stripe account, you see your valuation real time. You can see what it changed over the past eighty eight days and even set goals for valuation this year. Now the secret evaluation is there's many different ways to value a SaaS business. So the reason you're gonna see three or four different valuations inside of your Founderpath dashboard, this is all free by the way, is because depending on who's doing the buying of your SaaS company, you're gonna [06:11] get a different valuation. A VC is gonna pay a different valuation. Private equity firm is different. If you're gonna do a minority sale, that's different. And if you sell the whole business, that's a different valuation. You can see all those when I hover over here, Right? So the teal is what a VC would pay. Yellow is what private equity and red is if you sold the whole thing outright. Now what's cool about this is this is [06:33] not built off random data. Again, you guys hear these interviews on YouTube. All these datas are built from real time valuation data points founders share with us on the show. So traction, 1,200,000 seed round, 3.7 raise. They sold 22% of their business. Go in here and filter by the event. Maybe you only wanna see companies that have sold the whole business. Well, here are a bunch that have been acquired, the valuation and the multiple. Maybe you're [06:59] going out right now and you're raising your seed round. We'll go in here and look at all this recent seed deals that went down, what they raised, what valuation they raised at and what percent that they sold. There's never been a larger dataset of SaaS valuations than what you can get now inside of Founderpath. And we're thrilled to bring it to you. All right, We're gonna go back to the YouTube video here in a second, but [07:21] if you wanna check this tool out, if you wanna jump in and sign up, you can check it out for free to get your valuation at this link. This link, founderpath.com/products/valuations. Or if you go to founderpath.com and hover over products, click on get your valuation here, and go ahead and sign up to give it a whirl. Again, all that valuation data live right inside the platform. I hope to see you there. Alright. Let's jump back into [07:47] the interview. Who was your first business partner? [07:51] >> My first business partner was actually it was Ramp, which was a really good one to have, and then I did data rails on the FP and A side. And then the first paid one that I worked with was Brex, and since then it's been kinda off to the races. [08:09] What year did Brex pay you? [08:11] >> They were in 2022. And before that, like, I I actually never even thought about advertising or sponsored content. I was totally of [08:22] >> the subscription mindset and that's because I came from b to b software companies where I just knew how powerful subscription was and I eventually actually came to the conclusion like, hell, why why don't I have all the monetization methods? And I think that's what a lot of creators struggle with is picking their spots of where to make money off stuff, and sometimes they pigeonhole themselves into just one thing. I mean, like, you can make a lot [08:43] >> of money if you do webinars to to help, you know, a software company land deals with a highly targeted audience. There are a lot of different avenues you can take and kind of blending those together will kinda end up in a larger pie over time by diversifying revenue. [08:58] How'd you structure that original Brex sponsorship contract and what was the total value of the contract? [09:04] >> They had reached out to me and they said, hey, how about we just pay you a lump sum for six posts? [09:10] Mhmm. [09:11] >> So I don't think I can give the exact amount on it, but that was kinda eye opening to me like, oh, shit. Somebody wants to pay me for my writing now. It's not just a way to use companies as a partner. [09:21] I mean, are we talking give us a range. Mean, are we talking like 1 k per post or like 10 k per post or less or something? [09:26] >> It was it was in the middle of those two numbers you just gave. [09:30] So but it's per post. So if it's 2 k per post or six post, they pay you something like, I'm making this up, you know, 12 k, something like that? [09:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. Something in that ballpark. So it wasn't like I was retiring off it, it was if you've ever made a dollar online for the first time, it's a real holy shit moment, like I feel kind of seen and validated here, and that was more important to me than the money. It was like a company that I thought highly of was willing to to pay me and they were taking a bet on me. Since then I've [09:59] >> been able to drastically, I'd say, increase the contract values of those who want to advertise because of the audience. [10:05] So what do you charge now to get a mention or a post? [10:09] >> Minimally minimally, probably, like, 5 to 10,000 depending on how much I have to say about it. [10:16] Okay. [10:17] >> But, yeah, that's kind of the the [10:20] Do you sell any other inventory besides a backlink in your mostlymetrics article? [10:26] >> So I think about myself kind of as a skew, and I think content creators have to do that. Like, you know, it's not just about writing something in a backlink and charging for it. It's my voice is different than other people in, I think, the finance game, and I will also show up and talk to your customers if you want just from my experiences. So, like, you could structure something where, hey, and I'm just gonna make [10:51] >> it up, You know, a $100,000 over three months, you could do one podcast readout every week in my own tone that should resonate with finance people plus a newsletter post plus, like, a webinar show up to your event. And, it it becomes more of a relationship, I think, when you do it that way to say, listen. I'm here to make you succeed in any way I can in any content form that you can. And by bundling [11:21] >> those together, it's more of like a holistic value prop, not just, you know, a transactional thing where you sign up and maybe they pay you with a credit card for one post and then you never hear about them again. It's, hey. How can we grow together and actually integrate it into a marketing plan? [11:36] Yeah. I mean, how do make it sticky? You published a post on 07/25/2023 titled what got you here isn't getting you there. It featured Brex chief strategy officer, but the sponsor inventory at the top is blank. It says mostlymetrics plus your logo here. If the original contract with Brex works, they'd wanna be buying up all of your ad space. So how do you So create sustainability [11:57] >> that one, that's a great example of a partnership. I did not charge them for that because I met Art, and I said this is an incredibly brilliant person, and I want to have him tell his story and share something with my audience. So I actually went and said, hey. Do you wanna just do this, you know, person to person, and I can interview you on this? So I don't like, I actually don't try to monetize a [12:20] >> 100% of everything because I think people appreciate when you just wanna talk to smart people and and put them, you know, on display for the audience. [12:31] That one By way, don't think these are we're in the same space. So like, I don't wanna give you that as an out. I don't think what you just said that those don't have to be mutually exclusive. If you do a really great piece of content, somebody is going to be willing to get their name in that piece of content. It's not like you're selling out every time you sell a sponsorship link in a post. So [12:47] like my question is a lot of companies like this newsletter, sponsors, etcetera. The difficult thing they have is they will get a $6.12, $10.15 ks contract one time from a Brex. But then if they don't get the click throughs that Brex expected, right? Or they don't get like Brex can't justify the cost internally over time, it becomes a one time thing that's very hard to build a sustainable business around. So, so have you unlocked anything in [13:08] terms of creating sustainable sponsor relationships that consistently yield you, you know, 4 or $56 per month? [13:14] >> Yeah. So it's a great question. And I think the key is both sides realizing that this is for my audience, CFOs aren't going to just buy something because you did one banner ad in one post, you have to be willing to buy like at least a month or like six posts or, you know, for the podcast, we do three month sponsorships because it's best for both of us. You need to hear it multiple times. I remember [13:38] >> there was a study that you need to hear about a brand seven times before you actually consider making a purchase. So I'm very upfront with people who wanna sponsor it, and I'll say, listen. I can do a one time post view, but I really don't think it's gonna be the best results because you have to also build a relationship with the audience, and they have to hear from you multiple times from from multiple angles. So I [14:00] >> I try to caution people away from paying for one thing and saying, listen, I'll even, like, you know, maybe do one post for free just to show you the clicks or something like that. I don't usually do that, but I wanna build a long term relationship where we expose you over time multiple times to to an audience. [14:19] Mhmm. But I mean, how do you do that? Even when we look at your some of your most popular posts on your website, I lost 209,000 on my own money trying to start a business. Like I don't see anything in here like Brex supports, you know, everyone trying to start a company. Even if you lose $200 like me, click here to try Brex. Right? I mean, your most popular posts should definitely be full. You know, if [14:37] you have a sponsor inventory full, like that should be effectively filled. So I [14:41] >> guess Yeah. Think the second one down I think the second one down, most popular, third one down is on vertical software. That one was sponsored by Abacum, a company that I really believe in within the FP and A space. [14:52] Oh, okay. [14:53] >> And what's cool about that is they continue to get clicks now because most of my content's evergreen. Like, I'm not gonna like, if you think about different levels of content, you have, like, have evergreen stuff which I write which is always helpful, like people are always gonna want to know more about metrics so they can make more money over time and be better at their jobs and then you have news stuff which may be a flash [15:14] >> in the pan and you get big views one day but people won't visit it. So some of my early posts, I I didn't, advertise at all because I was just trying to get audience capture. And to be honest, like, it's kinda one of those things where you're learning on the fly every day and trying to see which model is best. And there there are a lot of, creators that, you know, I look up to in the [15:36] >> space, and they actually give away a lot of their content for free. So somebody once said to me, CJ, you wanna give away so much value that you almost feel sick not charging for it, and that's when the real money will come. [15:48] Yeah. It's also a great way for people that can't make money to use as an excuse of why they haven't made any money. Mean, ultimately you want great content creators to make a lot of money so they can reinvest. I mean, look at look at MrBeast and how much he spends on new videos. The videos get better because he makes so much money. So like, I wanna see you get really rich because you're gonna invest it [16:04] back in what you love [16:04] >> with Me too, [16:05] So I guess my next question for you is why give up a percent of your podcast revenue to a network when you already own relationships via mostlymetrics with sponsors like Abacum that you can sell directly? [16:18] >> Yeah. I mean, I'm still a full time CFO at this point too, and I do nights and weekends and hustle really hard on writing in the podcast. But what turpentine gives me is more distribution on top of what I already have, professionally produced podcasts and access to people that I may not be able to tap into. So, like, they help me source a lot of the podcast guests. They help me advertise and find partners named a [16:46] >> sales arm, which is helpful. And so it allows somebody who's professional like me to show up and just be responsible [16:52] for content. So, like, Jim Jim Cook jumping on your show, you you know, the cofounder of Netflix. You're saying turpentine's worth it because they would get a guest like that on my show. You wouldn't be able to get that guest by yourself. [17:03] >> 100%. And I think over time, I'll be able to get a lot of these guests by myself. So far, it's probably been fifty fifty coming from my network, fifty fifty coming from theirs. But what is also potentially, you know, not seen in what we've talked about before is they have other business podcasts, and the best way to grow a podcast is through other podcasts. So Eric, Tornberg, and Amelia, you know, the cofounders of Turpentine, what they've [17:27] >> done an excellent job of doing is making other niches that are somewhat tangentially related who can cross promote each other. The newsletter that I have is an excellent source of distribution, but it's not the end all be all. So I wanna grow from different angles and, you know, by supporting other podcasters on the network, you end up finding this pool of like minded people who will cross pollinate between them. [17:48] Yep. Yep. Very cool. So when do you when do you quit your full time job and go on on media? [17:53] >> That that's the that's the million multimillion dollar question here. And I think it's more so when I finally get an idea to to to fulfill what I call content to commerce. And what my end goal with this is to build a business behind it all. So a lot of companies, what they do is they'll make a start up, and then they'll try to find distribution. So they'll start with the product and then try to find the [18:17] >> people. My thing is to find the people, have fun creating the content, and then figure out what product they want, and then build that for them. So, like, a lot of content creators use their content to invest in other companies. That's cool and stuff, but I wanna build a company behind it. And so, you know, I'm happy in the spot that I'm in now learning as a CFO, and it gives me a ton of credibility. I [18:37] >> think there's a flywheel there where I can crystallize what I'm learning, and I can also be seen as a subject matter expert because I'm doing it day to day. But, eventually, I'd I'd love to to make this full time probably within within the next three years here. [18:50] When you send out an email to your 35,000 subscribers, how many open typically and how many clicked usually? [18:56] >> Yeah. My my my open rate right now yesterday was 46% so far, And then my click through rate on Any is between 37% depending on the post itself. Mhmm. But usually it's probably in the four and a half to five range. [19:15] Okay. I guess so 46% of thirty five sixteen thousand opened, and then you're saying 7% of the or five to 7% of the 16,000 would click? [19:25] >> Yeah. Something like that. And then the website itself [19:27] So just to be clear, sorry. That would be, like, six, seven, 800 clicks per post? [19:31] >> Yeah. Yeah. That that sounds about right. And yesterday, for example, we got twenty six thousand first day views because a lot of them are through email, but a lot of them are also just word-of-mouth. It was kinda cool. Somebody emailed me today. I made the TLDR tech, newsletter for the first time today, which was like a cool milestone for me just because I've read it for so long. But I've been getting picked up by different distribution [19:54] >> networks and kind of this whole internet flywheel. This That makes a lot [19:58] of sense. How many how many do you have a way via subsex to analyze your audience? How many of them are true CFOs operating at a SaaS company right now? [20:05] >> My friend actually built me a tool, and it's coming to market, next month, and it's called Megahit. And, basically, I upload my subscriber list, and then, it uses apollo.io and ChatGPT and a couple other tools and LinkedIn to figure out what percentage of people are of what title and what industry they work in. So the last time I checked, I think I had about 7,000 actual CFOs. And then I have other people within it who are, [20:36] >> you know, maybe a couple years behind and aspiring to be CFOs. [20:39] Right? Yeah. [20:40] >> Maybe they're the head of FP and A and company Are [20:42] those CFOs at SaaS companies? Do have any way to know that? [20:45] >> Yeah. It blends them by it's pretty neat. It'll show me what industry they're in and then it'll show me how many people work at that company too. So, how many of [20:56] the 7,000 CFOs on your list are SaaS CFOs, would you say? [21:00] >> About 60%. [21:01] Okay. Wow. [21:02] >> So pretty significant, [21:03] there. Okay. Very cool. Alright. CJ, on that note, let's wrap up here with the famous five. Number one, your favorite book? [21:10] >> Catch 22 by Joseph Feller. [21:11] Number two, is there a CEO you're following or studying? [21:15] >> Yeah. Mark Gustafson of Minoan Brands, Minoan Experience. [21:22] Number three, what's your favorite online tool for building mostlymetrics? [21:27] >> My favorite online tool is just a blank Substack page, baby. [21:32] Straight [21:32] >> from the dome. [21:33] Number four, how many hours of sleep do get every night? [21:36] >> Oh, man. I got a 1.5 year old, and then I got another one on the way. So not as much as I'd like, Probably seven. [21:43] Okay. [21:44] >> And Sounds situation like someone's married with one kid, another one on the way? [21:48] >> Yes, sir. [21:49] Alright. And how old are you, CJ? [21:50] >> I'm 32 going on 33. [21:52] Nice. [21:53] >> Last question. Something you wish knew when you were 20. [21:57] >> Everything's gonna be okay. I actually have it written on a post it note up here because nothing's ever as good or as bad as it seems. And I think some moments in life and in business in particular, you think it's the end of the world or the best thing ever, but you gotta wake up tomorrow and do it again. [22:11] Guys, he cut his teeth at an operating company as a in a private equity firm, also a PwC before that. Now runs a newsletter focused on CFOs of which he gets a 46% open rate, which is about 16,000 opens and a five to 7% click through rate, which is 800 clicks per post called mostlymetrics.com hosted on Substack. 7,000 of those readers are actual CFOs. In fact, it's so valuable. We've got companies like Brex wanting to pay [22:32] them $1.02, $3.04 ks sort of per post from a sponsor perspective. He's looking to scale that now launched podcast as well with turpentine still while cutting his teeth as an operator as a true CFO at a company called Parts Tech, which he's working on. CJ, thanks for taking us to the top. [22:46] >> Thank you, sir. It's been a blast. [22:48] One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM Central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers, they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU, CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday 1PM [23:13] Central. Additionally, remember these recorded Founder interviews go live. We release them here on YouTube every day at 2PM Central. Make sure you don't miss any of that, make sure you click the subscribe button below here on YouTube, the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live. I wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the SaaS world, whether it's an acquisition, a big fundraise, [23:36] a big sale, a big profitability statement or something else. I don't want you to miss it. Additionally, if you want to take this conversation deeper and further, we have by far the largest private Slack community for B2B SaaS founders. You want to get in there. We've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing. You can go in there and quickly search and see what people are saying. Sign up [23:57] for that at nathanlatka.com slack. In the meantime, I'm hanging out with you here on YouTube. I'll be in the comments for the next thirty minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode. If you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up. We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, but I do it so that we can all learn. We have to counter those people. We [24:17] got to push them away. Click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that I appreciate your guys'support. Alright, I'll be in the comments. See you.