Oneio Revenue, Valuation & Funding (2024)

[00:00] Hey, folks. My guest today is Janne Kärkkäinen. He's a value driven entrepreneur, father of four, and a team sports enthusiast. Played a lot in a band in front of 80,000 people. He set up three companies and sold one. Now he's building a next phase of evolution in B2B collaboration called ONEiO.cloud. It's an integration service provider. All right, Janne, you ready to take us to the top? [00:20] >> Yeah, sure. [00:21] Okay. So what does that mean? An integration service provider? [00:26] >> Well, it actually means this kind of like I think you're you're talking about SaaS all the time, so it's kind of like a private thing. But I I think from our standpoint, we are kind of like combining the domain expertise and the SaaS product to be this kind of, like, service provider offering, which means that we can actually our customers can hand out the keys to this particular domain, which is not that kind of, like, easy [00:52] >> to fulfill, and we'll take care of it. So, anyway, we'll take in the whole nine yards from from customers. So [00:58] So it's a combination of there's there's you have a software that's built, but you also do it for your your users, their services too. [01:06] >> Well, two sides. So in a way, of course, you need to ramp up stuff when you implement implement integrations. That's only a tiny part, but I think the most valuable part is the running of things. So in a way, we run it. So in a way, we're we're like your mobile operator for your phones if you are comparing to your collaboration things between the b two b businesses. So Okay. [01:27] Maybe help us get a better understanding of this. I mean, can you tell us the story of a a current customer and and how they use you? [01:34] >> Usually, it's it's our prime domain is IT services. So in a way, companies, enterprises, have IT services, so they need to deliver different kind of things for their internal customers, so to speak. So in a way, what they need to do is orchestrate these kind of things. So what nowadays is a is a trend is that you actually don't in house everything. You don't do your, like, initial stuff, application support, whatever that it needs to be [02:06] >> kinda like to fulfill all of these things. You outsource these things. So it means that you need to be able to orchestrate everything that you do, and that means that you need to be able to collaborate with your vendors. So in a way, for example, we have a good reference case, Bayer. It's a big pharmaceutical company. They have this, like, the biggest outsourcing bid there has been in Europe. I think maybe globally, but it's $1,000,000,000 or [02:33] >> euros is outsourcing. So Mhmm. They need to operate all these things that they are buying buying from these vendors like Capgemini or or Yep. These things. [02:46] Now when I interviewed you back four years ago in 2018 and also three years ago back in 2019, you said that on average customers are paying you sort of, you know, around $4,000 per month. Is it still in that range? [02:58] >> I think it's it's been kinda like, to a certain extent, of course, lowering, but then, of course, to to kinda look more. So it's it's kinda like a thing that gets expand. So you start with something which could be lower than four, but then, of course, there's no ceiling on that if if you need to I understand. Many, many [03:21] If look at an average, though, is it about 4,000 a month? [03:23] >> I think it's, like, between the 3 or four. Yeah. [03:26] Okay. Okay. Got it. That's great. And and we when you came on last week, talked obviously about how many of these customers you signed up. I believe you're a low volume, high price point. Right? So how many customers are you working with today? [03:38] >> I think we're, like, short of 100. So 80 to a 100. [03:42] Okay. That's nice growth. Again, I think last time we chatted, you had about 60 customers. So have you expanded your team to support the extra customers? What's your team size today? [03:52] >> We're more I think we today, we started with two. I think we are, like, 50 now. [03:58] So Five zero? [03:59] >> Yeah. So we have a team in Germany, in US, and in in Helsinki, and, of course, two two satellites over there, Nordic and and UK. [04:09] Oh, what's going on there, YouTube? Good to see you guys. Now imagine this. You love watching these interviews with SaaS founders, but imagine if we took all of the valuation data out from over 2,807 interviews I've done manually. Saves you a lot of time. Well, we've done this. We've built it into the beautiful interface inside of Founderpath. Check this out. I'll show you how you can access this in a second, but you log in, you connect [04:33] your Stripe account, you see your valuation real time. You can see what it changed over the past eighty eight days and even set goals for valuation this year. Now the secret evaluation is there's many different ways to value a SaaS business. So the reason you're gonna see three or four different valuations inside of your Founderpath dashboard, this is all free by the way, is because depending on who's doing the buying of your SaaS company, you're gonna [04:57] get a different valuation. A VC is gonna pay a different valuation, private equity firm is different. If you're gonna do a minority sale, that's different. And if you sell the whole business, that's a different valuation. You can see all those when I hover over here. Right? So the teal is what a VC would pay. Yellow is what private equity and red is if you sold the whole thing outright. Now what's cool about this is this is [05:19] not built off random data. Again, you guys hear these interviews on YouTube. All these datas are built from real time valuation data points founders share with us on the show. So traction 1,200,000 seed round 3.7 raise. They sold 22% of their business. Go in here and filter by the event. Maybe you only wanna see companies that have sold the whole business. Well, here are a bunch that have been acquired the valuation and the multiple. Maybe you're [05:45] going out right now and you're raising your seed round. We'll go in here and look at all this recent seed deals that went down, what they raised, what valuation they raised at, and what percent that they sold. There's never been a larger dataset of SaaS valuations than what you can get now inside of Founderpath. And we're thrilled to bring it to you. All We're right, gonna go back to the YouTube video here in a second, but [06:07] if you wanna check this tool out, if you wanna jump in and sign up, you can check it out for free to get your valuation at this link. This link, founderpath.com/products/valuations. Or if you go to founderpath.com and hover over products, click on get your valuation here, and go ahead and sign up to give it a whirl. Again, all that valuation data live right inside the platform. I hope to see you there. Alright. Let's jump back into [06:33] the interview. Now can and can I take 80 customers times 4,000 a month? You're doing about $320,000 a month today in revenue. [06:42] >> I think it's quite close to 300. Yeah. [06:45] Okay. About 300,000 a month. And you've bootstrapped, I believe. Correct? Or have you raised? [06:53] >> We are not that [06:55] >> it's a young company, so we've we've done this for ten years. We could start the first five or six. We have, like, a minor seed funding of 1,000,000. I think it was 2019, 2018. And this year, we raised our first round of 7,000,000. [07:13] Oh, you did raise? Okay. Got it. Yeah. You did a million seed back in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. And most folks, when they were raising seeds back then, you know, you're selling, you know, 10 to 20% of the business. Is that about what you sold? [07:24] >> Approximately. Yeah. [07:26] Somewhere in there? Okay. So like a 5,000,000 cap, something like that. [07:29] >> And then I think about 8 or or nine. [07:32] Oh, eight. Okay. Great. So you got better terms. You got better terms than I would say others did. What prompted the switch? You're pretty capital efficient. Right? Up to last year, you had only a million raised, but you had over 3,500,000 in terms of run rate. Why did you decide to raise capital? [07:47] >> I think it's, know, like, obvious that we've done this exploration of of our own business model and the kind of, like, offering that we have, and what is really our like, we are really proud of the fact that we have practical practical zero churn. So in a way, we we have tested it. So it is the the kind of solution that we are providing is really good. Our customers are really happy, and they hardly never leave. [08:13] >> So this was the point where we felt that, okay, the solution works. Now we need to put put the pedal to the floor and get some some acceleration to the market. [08:24] When did the round close? [08:27] >> On February this year. [08:29] Ah, so you beat you closed right before the market the market took a dive. Right? So would you call this your series a? [08:37] >> I think it's yeah. Well, usually, it's the VCs that define what series it is, so we don't really care. Yeah. But you could call it a. Yeah. [08:45] Yeah. And then most times again in series a, you know, you're selling, you know, maybe a little bit less than the seeds, so maybe 10% of the business. Or were you sort of around there? [08:54] >> Little bit more than 10. Yeah. Okay. [08:56] So that would have been, like, a $55 or $60,000,000 valuation, something like that. [09:03] >> Not really. It's like a [09:07] >> 20 to 25 from from [09:09] 20 to 25,000,000 valuation. [09:11] >> Euros. So so that's how I got 30. [09:13] 30. Okay. And that's pre money or post? Post. Post. Okay. Cool. Well, that that I mean, looking back now, obviously, you've only had it for two, three months. Did that valuation feel fair for where you were at the time? [09:26] >> I think so. Yeah. Well, I well, we started the path towards the the next round just before the COVID hit so that we can run into a few issues because you cannot meet people, and it it usually be this invest into the team. So it's kinda like looking at the eyeballs more more or less. Of course, you need to have the numbers and ideas and and these type of things, but at the end of the day, [09:51] >> it's it's the team that they invest, and I I feel that that was a little bit tricky for us because we need to do everything online and so forth. So [10:00] Yep. Yep. How many of the 50 people on your team today are engineers? [10:06] >> I think it's more or less from the engineering, like, development side, I think it's, sixteen, seventeen. Then we, of course, have support engineers and this kind of, like, more technical people, not but not big developers, maybe five, six. [10:21] Okay. So maybe 23 total, something like that. Yeah. And then do you have quota carrying sales reps, Janne, or no? [10:28] >> Yeah. How many? Well, [10:33] >> few are kind of like having, like, [10:37] >> like, multiple roles, but I think in in Germany, we have two. [10:43] >> In Finland, three. US, two. [10:46] So it's Five total? [10:48] >> Yeah. [10:49] Yeah. How did you figuring out your first salesperson's quota is not easy for a SaaS founder. How did you set your quota for your first sales hire? [11:02] >> I can't really recall. So it's gonna [11:04] You're not sure? [11:04] >> Okay. [11:05] >> I yeah. And and I I think when it comes to these sort of quotas and and and [11:11] >> things to how to measure these kind of sales, I think in in our case, particularly, it it is a team effort. We don't really we feel that it's it's kind of like a weird our our bonus mechanisms are are more kind of like joint. So when the team and the whole company Yeah. Makes an effort, then we'll yeah. [11:31] And you shared back in 2018 that you were spending, you know, about $60,000 to get a new customer paying $4,000 a month. Right? So you had a payback period of around thirteen months. Are those still the same metrics? [11:45] >> I think we've gone up a little bit. [11:49] Okay. So Spend a little more. [11:52] >> Well, [11:53] >> I'm But you still have I'm I'm not sorry? [11:56] I was gonna say you still have the really good retention, right, above 100% net dollar retention? [12:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's right. LTV tech is quite quite extensive since we don't have really churn. So so the calculation would would if you need to divide by zero, it's a little bit tricky. [12:13] Yeah. Yeah. That's tricky. Now when you say the CAC went up a little bit, where I mean, that's $80,000. Where are you spending that money? How are you using it? [12:22] >> Of course, company of our size is is salaries, of course. And [12:28] Okay. So most of that CAC is salaries, not paid marketing expenses, paid ads? [12:32] >> No. No. No. It's it's personalized, personalized labor that we need to do. And, of course, inbound and discount market awareness is something that we are exploring a lot, but it's a tricky business. Amazing. We haven't really found, okay. We put money there, and we'll so we're all good in a in a the face of story. [12:54] Before we wrap up, I have to ask about the three guitars behind you. How did you get in front of 80,000 people? I mean, are you in a band or a solo performer or what? [13:02] >> Yeah. I used to be in a band, like, ten years ago. So [13:06] That's a what was the name of the band? [13:08] >> It's called Sunrise Avenue. [13:10] Sunrise Avenue. And the biggest venue you played was 80,000? [13:14] >> Yep. [13:16] Wow. I'm I'm looking up pictures of you from back in the day right now on Google. You were you were you were quite the you were quite the guitarist. [13:25] >> Yeah. Well, that's for somebody else else to decide, but but because it was little experience, of course. Yeah. [13:33] Do you still do you still get a chance to play today? [13:36] >> Yeah. Well, I have another band at the moment. Well, not that active, though, but that's called Phoenix effect. You can you can find that in [13:44] Uh-huh. [13:44] >> Spotify as well. However, I think we're the Sunrise Avenue is is having a fair amount tour at the moment, actually, I'm I'm planning to join the guys in on stage in in July, so it's gonna be exciting stuff. Yeah. [14:00] That's I'm on stadium. [14:04] >> Stadium station. [14:04] Metal I'm on metalshockfinland.com reading about you. So this is your last Cool. This is your last stadium. What how many folks are you guys expecting to be in attendance? [14:15] >> Well, actually, they renovated the stadium just now. I'm not sure, but it should be in, like, 40. [14:21] Wow. Wow. Very is there is there any big similarity between building a software company and playing a guitar in front of 80,000 people with your band? [14:33] >> Maybe not directly playing, but actually, like, doing a band. I think that there's a lot of similarities, so it's kinda like you you need to build the prototypes, do demos, sell it to a separate company, kinda like a market yourself, like, question yourself all the time, you name it. So it's a it's a similar role, and I I think that it's been exciting things to to go, like, have these experiences and and and bring them to [15:00] >> different kind of domains. So it's a [15:02] That's exciting. Interesting. Well, hey. Let's wrap up with the famous five. Number one, what's the last book that you read? [15:11] >> I think it has to be some sort of like a well, it's a Finnish book. [15:20] >> Finished book. I'll just say finished book. [15:23] Yeah. It's Alright. Good one. [15:25] Number number two, is there a founder that you're following or studying? [15:31] >> Not really. No. [15:32] K. Number three, what's your favorite online tool for building ONEiO? [15:42] >> Well, we have this lucid ports, lucid depth, which we use for this kind of sketching. [15:47] What's it called? [15:49] >> Lucid lucid port lucid chart. [15:52] It's lucid. Oh, lucid chart. Yeah. Yeah. Number four. How many hours of sleep do you get each night? [15:58] >> Oh, eight at least. [16:00] And what's your situation? Married, single, kids? [16:03] >> I'm in a modern family of of six kids and a mess. So [16:08] Wow. Okay. Married six kids. Holy cow. And how old are you? [16:12] >> I'm 45. [16:13] 45? Mhmm. Okay. Last question. What's something you wish you knew when you were 20? [16:20] >> Sorry? [16:20] Something you wish you knew when you were 20 years old. [16:28] >> That's it. Actually, I don't know everything. [16:34] Guys, there you have it. ONEiO.cloud is helping service providers, you know, IT servicers deliver stuff to their retail customers, application support at scale. We had him back on in 2018, smaller than much larger now. He's grown to over $300,000 a month in revenue, 3,600,000 run rate. He was very capital efficient to only a million raised back in 2019 to grow a $3,000,000 business. Said, you know what? Now's the time to step on the gas. He [16:59] just closed a $7,000,000 series a in February at around a 30,000,000 valuation. 50 people on his team as he looks to scale. And, oh, by the way, he's a guitarist in a band with their farewell tour hitting here in July with 30,000 people. Man man of multiple talents. Janne, thanks for taking us to the top. [17:15] >> Thanks, man. [17:17] One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers, they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU, CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday 1PM [17:42] Central. Additionally, remember these recorded founder interviews go live. We release them here on YouTube every day at 2PM Central. To make sure you don't miss any of that, make sure you click the subscribe button below here on YouTube, the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live. I wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the SaaS world, whether it's an acquisition, a big [18:05] fundraise, a big sale, a big profitability statement or else. I don't want you to miss it. Additionally, if you want to take this conversation deeper and further, we have by far the largest private Slack community for B2B SaaS founders. You want to get in there. We've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing. You can go in there and quickly search and see what people are saying. Sign up [18:27] for that at nathanlatka.com/slack. In the meantime, I'm hanging out with you here on YouTube. I'll be in the comments for the next thirty minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode. And if you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up. We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, but I do it so that we can all learn. We have to counter those people. We [18:46] got to push them away. Click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that I appreciate your guys'support. Alright, I'll be in the comments. See you.

just got done editing this interview you guys are gonna love it before i do that though i want you to know that i'm going to be in the comments for the next 30 minutes or so answering your questions if there's additional questions you want me to ask the ceo next time i interview them leave them below or if you're just loving the data points i get ceos to share click the thumbs up button below that's your way of telling me you're loving this stuff and i'll get you more of it additionally again i'll be in the comments answering any questions you have all right for 30 minutes enjoy the interview hello everyone my guest today is juha burghal he is a serial entrepreneur with a wide experience in i.t domain from software development to services and software solutions and sales he's got over 20 years in enterprise service management with an excellent track record of building and leading winning teams his personal goal is to tell business leaders to see information technology as an organic and critical part of their business not just hard to understand expensive techie driven cost centers all right who are you ready to take us to the top yeah all right so the company is somebody's company's called 1io.cloud help us understand what the company does maybe name a customer and how they use you um basically what we are doing we automate enterprise integration delivery and management jobs typical customer is an enterprise who is um outsourcing their id or is a managed service provider providing different kind of business services to enterprise customers so we help them to integrate tools and processes okay so name a customer and tell us how that customer specifically is using you uh for instance enterprise customers would be in adidas or uh sixth schindler so how are you guys like tell us about adidas yeah tell us about how they use you um they utilize one i o uh from internal use case when it comes to integrating uh for instance salesforce for customer service requests uh regarding uh tdpr for instance going to from customer service to it so that the i.t guys can uh automate the process between the customer service and themselves and then uh external use cases integrating their external suppliers to their centralized i.t okay so should we thank you kind of like a meal soft or a zapier or enterprise version of those um well those guys is definitely a enterprise grades integration platform uh typically used on the business applications like erp and logistics banking transaction based like enterprise wide whereas one io sits and it's kind of positions to the more like a business support functions like it hr financials guys like that who don't have the budget uh resource to really build set up the enterprise credit integration so we automate this thing for them okay now as last time we came on the show was back in december of 2018 man it's been it's been a while has anything changed regarding uh the average price folks are paying you you told us acv last time was about 50 000 per year on average uh i think it went a little bit up at the moment we are actually following up arpa um revenue per account so we are somewhere in 40 45 000 usd per year on average um per uh average average revenue per account per year not though per not per month right yeah uh per year yeah okay and uh founded the company in 2011 correct yeah and so what have you done i mean how are you finding these customers is it enterprise model or field sales model how are you landing new folks um well that's the thing that we changed last year since we had a quite extensive channel model uh quite traditional enterprise sales through the channel reach out for those large enterprises and do the certain changes over there we change to the direct model and start building productive growth strategy so um at the moment um the main channel that we are building it's it's a digital channel so we strongly believe that that's the way to sell to the to the individuals in the enterprises so um at the moment it's kind of a hybrid still so we have the the channel we have direct direct sales and the channel um depending a little bit on the region okay and so how many customers have you scaled to now uh we have 65 customers 65 customers okay uh so can i mean can i take 65 times that 45 thousand dollar ac that put you about 250 000 a month on average in revenue um it's around that yeah okay so in the in the usd the mrr is uh was last year december 2 30. two third okay okay that's pretty good yeah it's pretty good so you so you have just recently passed a three million dollar run rate we are getting there yeah okay very good now help us understand a little bit uh how the team composition has changed since the last time we spoke so last time you had about 15 folks on the team how many today uh 32 and what's the breakdown how many engineers engineers um i think now the engineering and r d something like 15 to 20 20 pips over there and rest is then the support customer success uh sales marketing um we also have now the central european re we study up operations over there so we have a couple of couple of guys in in central europe and uh now also in the us how many uh on the team how many sales reps do you have that actually carry a quota six six okay and who's leading that i mean this is something at your scale that a lot of founders they struggle with they're not sure how to get their their sales team motion going yeah i i can feel that uh i have really really good vp sales at the moment he is leading he is leading the show show so um i've been able to take that burden a bit on my from my soldiers to him so well that's obviously a nice nice luxury to have uh was there are there any mistakes you guys made early with your sales team that you've since figured out and fixed um i think the not maybe not in the sales team but it's related to the channel model i think we we try to try to you know stay in control over the channel but the most of the channel partners where they are quite big in the prices like fujitsu for instance and um of course um it's our relationship and our stake for their business is quite relatively small so um those were the mistakes i think we learned that uh in order to us to deliver the full value for the customers we need to to stay in control we need to lead the cases and then utilize the channel feed the channel rather than us you know uh hoping that the channel guys are doing their best for us yeah what do you pay the channels do you pay my kickback or affiliate fee yeah the same thing still um 30 for the first year's mr arr and then uh 10 for the next uh next couple of years okay well discount discount from there sorry when you say 30 year one and then 10 for the next couple years how many years is that 10 uh two years so three year max i see i see okay i mean it's a nice little nice incentive and have you raised additional capital or still about 1.4 million raised that's still the case we are actually now in the middle of uh quite a fast series a round discussions and um we also got this grant from um eu innovation fund which is it was really nice one 1.1 million euros in total as a grant that helped us to to boost up a bit non-diluted which is nice yeah definitely definitely yeah what so what is it like i mean we're in the middle of this virus stock markets around the world are down 30 40 percent uh you know there was tons of vc money flowing like crazy as recently as three weeks ago what are you hearing you're trying to raise right now yeah well this is interesting since um as you know vc's they have the money already so they have to fund so they have to figure out what they do with the money since the stock market collapsed they need to find ways to to invest still and um for some reason for back in the days 2008 actually the vc events investments didn't you know die off just like that of course there are things that people maybe hesitate at the moment when it comes to timing and that's of course a bad thing but the at the moment the discussions are still going on with us for instance and nobody has said that okay we will we will postpone or something like that so how much are you looking to raise well at the moment we are looking for in a ratio for five to six million um euros which is then something six six plus uh usd million and and what i mean how much of the company do you think you can get away with selling for six i mean can you get like five percent ten percent who you think if it's like 20 percent let me just share the illusion yeah like how much of the company do you think you have to sell to raise six million um that's a good question always before this uh virus thing going on i think that the um we were looking for 20 to 25 million free money valuation what do you think after edit it too hard to say well i mean you i mean you must be having these conversations right what are you hearing yeah but it's really like most of the most of the discussions that we are having at the moment they are quite early stage still i see i see okay so you want to raise six million we don't have a lead yet or anything like that just conversations yep now are you burning are you burning capital right now are you guys profitable uh we are burning last year for instance the burn rate was around 80 80k usd total oh a month month okay and you're still burning about that today yeah okay that's not not horrible have you given yourself though enough runway i mean you have enough runway in the bank where you can last six seven eight ten months if you need to of course cash flow is cash is the key and the king this at this time so we will we we are following up the cash flow very really really like on daily basis almost yeah um so the run rates we are estimating for the six six uh for the five months at the moment okay so what you have like 300 400 000 in the bank right now cash yeah and then of course the outstanding invoices and stuff like that yeah that's good now obviously churn is critical in any sas company what's your guys's churn look like um calculated germ um net mr arjun around 2.5 minus 2.5 last year okay and logo journey calculative five around five percent um let's ignore logos for a second just focus on revenue churn uh net it sounds like that's a good number 102 net revenue retention which is the same as negative two percent uh net revenue churn if you look at the gross number though the gross revenue churn do you know what that was last year no that number i don't have here no no problem in terms of getting new customers when you're not using a channel partner which you pay a 30 kick pack for are there any other channels that you're leveraging and if so with your fully weighted cac to get a new 40 000 of your customer any other general assuming yeah i'm just curious what's your fully weighted customer acquisition cost if it's not through a value-added reseller um at the moment or last year in average i think we calculated in total of customer acquisition cost around uh 67 000 okay a customer okay so you get paid back in 14 15 months something like that something like that yes yeah these are good good good economics here well to be the divided by khakis three was 3.9 last year in average yep that's good that's good stuff uh very good well look obviously you're you gotta it looks like you're literally on the road right now uh talking talking to vcs uh trying to figure out are you can you raise money do you not raise money now well let me ask you a tough question right if this virus thing doesn't turn around and you guys only have you know four to six months of runway in your bank i mean you have to make some tough decisions what do you cut what i mean what do you cut well that's a that's a really good question of course we've been doing a lot of um this traditional kind of trade shows as well they are now cut off easy no need to decide over there then uh traveling flying all that which was quite quite big last year that will be automatically cut then of course um especially since most of the folks are in finland and the legislation and when it comes to you know layoffs and stuff like that it's not that flexible yeah so it's gonna take weeks months to to start getting savings from employees and salaries and stuff like that so then of course we are discussing with our current investor and they are they are still happy to help so there are option options over there as well yeah who is your current investor it's a nordic company called inventure okay but there are vc firm or or a company very good all right let's wrap up here with the famous five number one favorite business book um that's all places tricky one you told me uh anatomy of winning last time oh yeah that was so again i cannot use it anymore so i'm still reading it actually i like the the book by bess bush the guy who are setting up kind of the blg product guy yeah product product yeah number two number two is there a ceo you're following or studying um not myself then um you can say none no no none number three what's your favorite online tool for building your company i still like hubspot like last time number four how many hours of sleep to eat every night still seven okay and uh married single kiddos what's your situation still married two kids that's good and how old are you 43 44 uh turning uh 44 44. very good last question what do you wish your 20 year old self knew well maybe will hit the fan at some point so i think that's something keep some money in the bank yep there you guys have it uh 1.80 founder again helping automate integration development and management jobs it just passed 200 oh almost 3 million dollars in arr they've got about 300 grand in the bank burning eighty thousand dollars per month looking to go raise six million on a 20 25 pre that was pre kind of virus stuff he's now literally on the road trying to figure out what do we do next can we still raise do we have to cut some costs what do we do there at 65 customers right now founded back in 2011 uh they've raised 1.4 million to date 32 folks team 15 engineers as they look to scale yeah thank you for taking us to the top pleasure these ceos rarely give these kinds of interviews i hit them hard i get the data and i want to do it more so if you want to get more of this stuff make sure you subscribe up here and then additionally go check out one of my other ceo interviews right now