How Doist Bootstrapped to About $10M in 2019 Revenue and Expected to Pass $15M in 2020 (Interview with Founder and CEO Amir Salihefendić)

Introduction and Company Overview

Nathan Latka

00:00Hello, everyone. My guest today is Amir Salihefendić. He is... Views life differently ever since his family fled war torn Bosnia for Denmark, and he began to see the world becoming truly borderless. That worldview influences his mission to change the future of work as founder and CEO of Doist, a fully distributed bootstrapped company that creates productivity tools used by over 13,000,000 people globally. Amir, are ready to take us to the top?

Amir Salihefendić

00:00Let's let's do this. Yeah. I'm

What Doist Does: Todoist and Twist

Amir Salihefendić

00:28excited.

Nathan Latka

00:28So folks have not heard, it's doist.com, doist.com. What are you guys doing? What's your average customer using you for?

Amir Salihefendić

00:36Yeah. So we have, like, a task management app, one of the most popular to do apps called Todoist. And then we have also recently, like some years ago, actually, launched a team communication app, asynchronous team communication app called Twist. So basically, Todoist and Twist are our core products. Yeah.

Founding Story: 2007 Side Project

Nathan Latka

00:55So so give us the backstory. When did you launch Doist? What year?

Amir Salihefendić

00:59Yeah. I mean, I launched it for my own usage in 2007. So, you know, I just created, like, my my background is development. I created a to do list, and then I kind of stick to it and coded on it for many years. And then I actually co founded a social network in between, and then this social network didn't really work out, so I went back and worked on my to do list.

Nathan Latka

01:22So now What year did you work on the social network?

Amir Salihefendić

01:25From, like, 2007 to 2010. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

01:29Okay. And then so this was sort of a side project in your evenings. And then after 2010, shut the network down, you said, I'm gonna go back on Doist.

Amir Salihefendić

01:36Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I... You know, it's just like my passion project, and most developers kind of start with a to do list. Not many continue doing that for, like, over ten years. So that's basically what what I have done. Yeah.

First Customers via Personal Blog

Nathan Latka

01:50So what year did you get your first paying customer in?

Amir Salihefendić

01:53On the first year, actually, in the first couple of months because I was doing this on the side, and I didn't want to pay for the server costs. So I just like, you know, let's just make reminders a paid feature.

Nathan Latka

02:06But was this 2007 or 2010?

Amir Salihefendić

02:062007. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

02:06Okay. So who who was it? Do you remember how you... Where you found your first customer?

Amir Salihefendić

02:15I had a popular blog. So I was a blogger, you know, and... Yeah, so basically, of the first customers were via my blog.

Nathan Latka

02:24What was the blog URL?

Amir Salihefendić

02:26amix.dk.

02:28Yeah. It's kinda like some of the stuff I'm not really super proud of because, sometimes I would just drink and then come home and write something stupid.

Nathan Latka

02:38Okay. Wait. So it's a... A... It's aix.dx?

Amir Salihefendić

02:43Amix dot d k. So finish, like, the main name. Yeah.

Pricing Model: $5 Per Month Premium

Nathan Latka

02:51Can you can you send that to me on the chat here on Riverside? I'd love to I'd love to check that out as we're chatting. So... Okay. So you you use that community blog to get it going. And then after that, help me understand today how people are using the tool and maybe start with sort of what they're paying on average. Are you... It's... You strike me as a low ARPU, high volume, no touch play. Is

03:12that accurate?

Amir Salihefendić

03:14Yeah. We have hundreds of thousands of customers, and most of them pay... The lifetime value is, I would say, about a 100 or something like that. So it's very, very low, but we have a lot of volume. Honestly, we still lack the multiplayer aspect. So we have figured out the single player mode because Todoist is used a lot by individuals. And I think when we actually figure out the multiplayer mode, and then I think the magic

03:45will happen because we basically have, like, of active users, you know, using this.

Nathan Latka

03:50Well, so let me let me so let me break all that down, though. So instead of giving me a lifetime value number, when people sign up for Doist, what do they pay you per month on average? It's like, 5 or $6?

Amir Salihefendić

03:59Yeah. I mean, it's it's like a premium model, so we have a very powerful free version, and then we have a, like, premium version that's up. I think it's, like, $5 per month, and then, like, if you pay yearly, it's 4.

Nathan Latka

03:59Yeah. Okay.

Amir Salihefendić

03:59It's very low.

Nathan Latka

04:14Yeah. So there's only one pricing plan. Everyone pays $5 a month.

Amir Salihefendić

04:18Yeah. We also have Todoist for Business, but it's a huge hack. Actually, it was an afterthought, and then we're trying to improve that now. But we have basically created this, I think we spent three months, and we basically had generated 30% or more of our revenues for many years now, and we have not really improved it.

Nathan Latka

04:41Your enterprise tool?

Amir Salihefendić

04:43It's not really an enterprise tool. It's basically like if you want to buy premium for your employees, then you will use this for business.

Nathan Latka

04:52What do you charge for that?

Amir Salihefendić

04:55It's a dollar higher.

04:59So it's about $49 per year, or $5 or $6 per month. Sorry, actually not... We have updated our pricing maybe a year ago, so it's something in that range.

Nathan Latka

05:14No. No. You're fine. I'm just trying to... So I wanna understand the story here. So, basically, between two thousand and seven and twenty nineteen, you only had one price point. It was $5 a month.

Amir Salihefendić

05:23Yeah. Honestly, I said this initially, very low price point, and basically all the other competitors compete this.

05:33Because we were one of the first online to do apps, we basically set the price point, and everybody has the same price point. And I don't think they were probably like, What does Doist charge? And then they basically do a price similar to us.

Nathan Latka

05:33Let's go back to the customer

05:51growth story. So your user blog gets your first customer. What year did you pass to 100 customers? Do you remember?

Amir Salihefendić

05:57It was a side project for me, so I didn't really care about the numbers that much. I basically cared about, Is this actually covering the server costs? And it actually made some profit, but it was a few thousand bucks per month, maybe.

06:15So it was very, very small scale in the beginning.

Nathan Latka

06:18I understand that, though, but do you remember what year, even as a side project, what year you passed 100 or 200 customers?

Amir Salihefendić

06:25I did that in the first six months because I already had a lot of traction. People were really excited about this, so a lot of them just paid.

Nathan Latka

06:25By the end

06:38of 2007, what you're saying is this was generating a couple thousand dollars per month in profit, you had over 200 customers?

Amir Salihefendić

06:45Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

06:46Something like that. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

06:47And you still... Was it you on the team, or was there multiple people?

Amir Salihefendić

06:52I mean, it's just me. Yeah. So I did the the support, the marketing, the design, the development, everything.

Nathan Latka

06:59You're a one man.

Amir Salihefendić

07:01Yeah.

Nathan Latka

07:02One man machines. So when did you hire your first employee?

Amir Salihefendić

07:06In 2011. Yeah. So, like, four years in.

Nathan Latka

07:10Okay. And how many people did you have at the end of 2011?

Amir Salihefendić

07:15Once I went full time on this, I began to hire more rapidly. Right now, we're about 85 people, maybe 90, because we are hiring more now.

Nathan Latka

07:15How many?

Amir Salihefendić

07:15Initially, most are engineers, so probably 50 engineers. We don't have any salespeople.

Nathan Latka

07:37That's great. Yeah. Do you remember... Because you're 90 people today, 50 engineers. Back in 2012, do you remember what the team size was at the end of the year?

Amir Salihefendić

07:48It's a very good question. I mean, initially, we actually ramped up, so I probably hired maybe five five-ten people initially, and then we integrated those people in, and then we created mobile apps, native mobile apps, and then after that we hired a bunch of more, and then we kind of struggled for a bit to kind of...

Nathan Latka

08:09What year was the mobile apps?

Amir Salihefendić

08:12It's probably, like, 2013 or '14. Yeah. So we were actually very late to the market with the...

Nathan Latka

08:18But you launched the Doist mobile app in 2013?

Amir Salihefendić

08:22Yeah. Todoist mobile apps, native mobile apps in 2013.

Nathan Latka

08:27Maybe And you said you struggled. What do you what do you mean by struggled?

Amir Salihefendić

08:30I mean, we basically hired more people, and we didn't really become more productive. We actually became less productive because we didn't really have have the structure in place to actually make people productive.

Nathan Latka

08:41Mhmm. So what was the team size? Let's just go to twenty fifteen.

Amir Salihefendić

08:49I think probably we ramped up to about 40 or 50 people, and that's where we actually struggled to kinda I think, actually, we we got a lot less productive than when we were, like, 10 or 20.

Nathan Latka

09:01Mhmm. Yeah. And are you measuring that off, like like, revenue per employee or something like that?

Amir Salihefendić

09:07I mean, just like shipping. We didn't ship anything. So, yeah, we struggled a lot to ship between probably 2015 and maybe 2016 and 2017. So it's only in the last two years that we actually reset this and began to ship and change stuff. Also, nice, there was a lot of legacy crap because I basically did this at a side project. A lot of the choices that I made initially weren't really the smartest ones.

Nathan Latka

09:36Between 2015 and 2018, you guys were really paralyzed, really, because you were rewriting the code base to take out technical debt, and just in 2018, you started shipping again.

Amir Salihefendić

09:46Yeah. Yeah. That's probably the the right way. And also, just creating the structure and getting people productive. Also, we experimented a lot and questioned. So we also had a

10:04love affair with no hierarchy, and that didn't... Try that. Like, it's not Yeah. Really It didn't work that well. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

10:13And so let's keep going on the customer. We understand sort of the team struggles and growth. Well, let's go back to sort of customers. So 200 customers in 2007, your first year. It's a side project, you're making a couple grand a month in profits, you're covering your AWS or your server spend, etcetera, if that was even around back then. When did you pass when did you pass, you know, your first, you know, 10,000 customers? What year?

10:33Do you remember?

Amir Salihefendić

10:35Yeah. I mean, honestly, the thing to note is we never actually celebrated any of the milestones. So even right now, when we passed 1,000,000 or 10,000,000 in ARR, it's not really something that we celebrate a lot. And the same thing with customer numbers, it's like, I really didn't track that much and I didn't really care that much about it. So I think it's kind of very different from most of the founders that kinda are hoax, you

11:05know, on the numbers. I was

Nathan Latka

11:05Well, I think just I think just because you

11:07don't celebrate something doesn't mean that it's not important to document your story, right, as a business case study for future, which is what I'm trying to do. So I totally get it wasn't a focus, you didn't pop champagne in wine bottles. But general... I mean, do do... Some general customer numbers in terms of as you were growing would be helpful, especially if you're in hundreds of thousands right now. I mean, do you remember the year you

11:27were around 10,000?

Amir Salihefendić

11:31Yeah. I mean, something that really accelerated a lot our our growth was basically the native mobile apps. So probably, I would say that, like, the... You know, because if you look at our growth curve, it's based, like, almost flat from, like, when it's kind of a side project for me. And then when we begin to ramp up, it's the native mobile apps, hiring the team. And that's where most of the customer growth comes in as well.

Nathan Latka

11:57So do you think you passed 10,000 customers in 2015?

Amir Salihefendić

12:00I I... We passed that before. Probably, like, 2012 or '13, like, when we... Yeah.

Nathan Latka

12:08Okay. And then the mobile app goes live in 2015. So the mobile app then gets adopted 2015, 2016, 2017. Mean, do you met... Do you remember, when did you pass 100,000 customers?

Amir Salihefendić

12:23I could actually maybe look that up.

Nathan Latka

12:26I know you don't know them by heart because you guys don't celebrate them, which is fine. I'm just looking for... I mean, are we talking, like, 2015 or '28... '18?

Amir Salihefendić

12:34Yeah. I can I can look this up? So let me actually try to to do that.

Bootstrapped and Profitable Since Launch

Nathan Latka

12:38Okay. Great. And so and we'll we'll sort of keep chatting as you're doing that. So so you're building you're building you're building Doist, again, launched in 2007 as a side project. You're scaling. You hired some people and started scaling really in 2015, and you started shipping things like the mobile application, which helped drive a lot of growth even as you were dealing with a lot of technical debt. You've done all this bootstrapped. Correct?

Amir Salihefendić

13:03Yeah. Yeah. We didn't raise any money, and we still have not raised any money.

Nathan Latka

13:07Love that. Which means you're profitable. Correct? You're not burning cash?

Amir Salihefendić

13:11I mean, we have actually been profitable, from, like, more... All the years. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

13:18Now are you... I mean, when you say profitable, are you basically at breakeven? You reinvest everything? Or US Founder helping create, like, personal wealth because you're really probably 20%, 30% EBITDA margins per month?

Amir Salihefendić

13:30I mean, the thing is, the general strategy has been to reinvest everything back to the company. I have, of course, taken some money off the table over the years, but it's not like, you know, I'm not DHH.

Employee Stock Options and Ownership

Nathan Latka

13:47You own do you still own 100% of the company?

Amir Salihefendić

13:50We are actually rolling out the, like, employee stock options right now. But, like, I I own most of it, and the the employees will own Indiana, I think, 25%. That's the least...

Nathan Latka

14:0135?

Amir Salihefendić

14:0135%?

14:0225.

Nathan Latka

14:04Oh, 25. Okay. That's great. And you just set up that 25% kind of employee option pool this year in 2020?

Amir Salihefendić

14:09Exactly. Yeah. So, like, yeah, like some... Like, yeah. That's basically it. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

14:14And why did you decide this year was the right year to do that?

Amir Salihefendić

14:18I mean, honestly, I think... I mean, I was kind of against this, the bootstrapping, especially if you hear the Basecamp guys, equity has no value and stuff like that. But it's kind of bullshit because equity is like, if you want to get wealthy, it's true equity. And I think it's kind of a way to align people as well on just building something bigger, and also just to reward people.

14:43A lot of have our doing this for over five years. I don't really think it's fair for myself only to make myself wealthy. I also want to do the same thing for other people.

Nathan Latka

14:56No, makes a lot of sense. Do you have that customer number up? What year was... Did you guys pass 10... A 100,000?

Amir Salihefendić

15:02I don't actually, but would probably say like 2015 or 16 or something like that. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

15:09Okay. Do you have eyes on passing a million paid customers, or is that really going to be a stretch in the next year or two?

Revenue: About $10M in 2019, $15M Projected for 2020

Amir Salihefendić

15:16The thing is, want to pass 100,000,000 in revenues in the next five years. It's right now probably more like four and a half years. So that's kind of the goal, and it's basically finding out the strategy to achieve that.

Nathan Latka

15:33And what are at right now in terms of revenue?

Amir Salihefendić

15:37Yeah. I mean, I think, like, this year, we'll probably pass 15 and maybe a bit more if we are lucky. And next year, I think we'll definitely pass, like, 20. That's at least the the plan.

Nathan Latka

15:50What'd you finish 2019 with?

Amir Salihefendić

15:56I think it's about... Yeah, I'm actually not 100%, but probably around 10. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

16:03That's great. So you basically have grown over the past twelve months from a $10,000,000 run rate to a $14,000,000 run rate bootstrapped.

Amir Salihefendić

16:10Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

16:10That's awesome.

16:12That's that's amazing. You need to be on the cover of, like, the Wall Street Journal and TechCrunch. The Bootstrap, good growth, this is how you build a SaaS company that actually generates real wealth.

Amir Salihefendić

16:27Yeah. But honestly, I think the opportunity is huge in this market that we're in. So,

16:34I think that the opportunity is much bigger than that.

Nathan Latka

16:37What year did you pass a million dollar run rate? Do you remember?

Amir Salihefendić

16:42Here's the thing. Like I said, we don't actually track

Nathan Latka

16:46Oh, but come on, Amir. A million. I I get you don't track it. I understand you don't track it, but that's like a big number.

Amir Salihefendić

16:51Yeah.

16:52I I actually like... I think we probably passed that probably, like,

16:58Lina, I would just like to... I'm actually unsure. 2015 maybe. But the thing is, I didn't even notice that because I was not really focused on the number.

Nathan Latka

17:07This is crazy. This what's interesting to me though. You launched it on Sentinel as a side project. You are slugging basically, even though you had another social network. You are slugging for basically eight years to get your first million bucks in revenue. And then over the past four years, you've basically 14 x that.

Amir Salihefendić

17:07Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

17:07That's what's impressive to me. I think that's a very interesting story. So so... And and you said about 200,000 customers today?

Amir Salihefendić

17:34Yeah. Yeah. We we probably have more than that.

Churn, Retention and the Consumer Market Challenge

Nathan Latka

17:36Yeah. Okay. So I guess what I'm going down here in line of questioning is how many free users do you... Like, what's your average conversion rate from free to paid?

Amir Salihefendić

17:46I mean, honestly, like, the market that we're in is, like, brutal. You know? It's kinda like con con... Consumer. Like, it's almost like consumer. So both the conversion rate and retention rate are really, really bad because it's just the market you're part of. So I would probably say a few percentage we convert from free to paid.

Nathan Latka

17:46Yeah. Okay.

Amir Salihefendić

17:46And also, like, the the retention isn't as great as, like, if you actually had, like, you know, businesses

18:15or enterprises using your product.

Nathan Latka

18:17Yeah. It it sounds like your growth... Because you told me earlier, lifetime value was about a $100. So if people are paying $5 a month, that means it's twenty months of lifetime value, which means your revenue... Your your churn annually, what is something like 70%?

Amir Salihefendić

18:36Actually, I don't know.

Nathan Latka

18:37Each month, how many customers do you churn?

Amir Salihefendić

18:42I don't know, actually.

Nathan Latka

18:44How you know that churn is bad then if you don't know what the number is?

Amir Salihefendić

18:50I mean, I know that the churn is bad compared to the benchmark, but honestly, I don't really care that much. There's some people inside a company that care more about this than me.

19:01Yeah.

Nathan Latka

19:02Why don't you care about churn? You don't you want... You work so hard to get customers. Don't you want them to fall in love with your product and use it forever?

Amir Salihefendić

19:10I do. But I think like there's a lot of like focus on the numbers and, you know, the dashboards and stuff like that. And honestly, like...

19:18Yeah. Well, I mean, ignore the number.

Nathan Latka

19:19Exactly. Ignore the number.

Amir Salihefendić

19:21Yeah.

Nathan Latka

19:21You

19:22can put your life in a totally great tool. Don't you want people to use it forever? Ignore what the actual CAC and LTV and churn ARPU numbers are. Don't you want people using it for a long time? Doesn't it upset you when people churn because they're they're basically killing your baby?

Amir Salihefendić

19:35I don't really feel like that. It's... I kind of feel like I'm creating a tool, and if people find it useful, they find it useful. If they don't, they have other tools they can use. So it's kind of like a very

19:47Zen like philosophy. And I think it makes me sleep much better at night than kind of

19:55dreaming about or nightmaring about bad churn.

Plans for Collaboration and Multiplayer Features

Nathan Latka

19:59What's the plan for the next year? What are you most excited about?

Amir Salihefendić

20:03We really want to tackle the collaboration space, adding proper multiplayer sharing, and Twist. We also have really great ideas for asynchronous communication. So all of these, I think, actually, will be kind of just increasing our lifetime value a lot. Usefulness as well, because, honestly, creating a tool that is mostly for individuals is brutal. If you're doing anything, that's not something I can recommend doing because you have a very hard time to actually keep users because you

20:40don't have a natural way to bring them back. With collaboration, it's much, much easier.

Nathan Latka

20:44And your whole team, by the we should point to that as fully remote. Correct? You have no office?

Amir Salihefendić

20:48Yeah. Yeah. We have been remote since day one.

Twist Revenue and the Async Communication Bet

Nathan Latka

20:50Yeah. I love that. So so on Twist real quick, you said you'll break about 14,000,000 revenue this year. Is any of that revenue coming from Twist, is it almost Doist?

Amir Salihefendić

21:00Mean, Twist is also freaking stock fest. Most companies would have given up by now.

21:10And it's a really, really brutal market as well. There's a lot of competition. But I really believe in the asynchronous way. So I would probably say that,

21:19yeah, probably maybe $600,000 Run rate. Or maybe even more yearly. So it's very small compared to Doist.

No Interest in Selling the Company

Nathan Latka

21:29Very good. But... Yeah. If someone approached... I know you wanna break a 100,000,000 in revenue, Amir, but if someone came to you like Monday, or one of these bigger companies and said, hey. We wanna buy the company for $200,000,000 all cash upfront. Do you sell the company?

Amir Salihefendić

21:44I would say fuck you. To...

Nathan Latka

21:46There's no... Even to to any number, you'd say fuck you.

Amir Salihefendić

21:50Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, I have already, like, declined, you know, as... Like, I don't even, like, entertain that... Those ideas.

Nathan Latka

21:58What's the largest offer you declined?

Amir Salihefendić

22:00I I mean, I I don't even go into them. So, like, if somebody sends me an email and they're just like, I just ignore it, or, like, I have a template that I send them back.

Nathan Latka

22:11But no one's put a number in front of you?

Amir Salihefendić

22:14No. Because I don't even entertain the idea of going... I don't actually... Why would I want to sell like this? It's kind of my life's work.

Famous Five: Books, Tools and Life Advice

Nathan Latka

22:25On that note, Amir, let's wrap up with the famous five. Number one, what's your favorite book?

Amir Salihefendić

22:32Yeah. I would probably recommend Let My People Go Surfing by the Patagonia Founder.

Nathan Latka

22:40Number two, is there a CEO you're following or studying?

Amir Salihefendić

22:44I really like love the podcast Invest Like the Best. I'm unsure if your listeners know it, but I would... And there's like a lot people...

Nathan Latka

22:54Is there a CEO? You're following a specific one?

Amir Salihefendić

22:57I mean, I really like Toby Lutke from Shopify. His interview there is, like, amazing. Yeah. So probably that and maybe also the the Stripe founders.

Nathan Latka

23:08Number three, what's your favorite online tool for building your company besides your own?

Amir Salihefendić

23:14Yeah. I would probably say, like, Git, you know, and, like, Git workflow. So we have based, like, a handbook that's kind of, like, versioned and lives on GitHub, but you can also use GitLab. And that is very, very powerful, because you can kind of do the development aspects, but to knowledge base of your company.

Nathan Latka

23:36Amir, number four, how many hours of sleep are you getting every night?

Amir Salihefendić

23:41I'm not a great sleeper. It's not really because I work a lot, but I probably get maybe seven hours per sleep.

Nathan Latka

23:49What's your situation? Married, single, kids?

Amir Salihefendić

23:53I'm married with two kids.

Nathan Latka

23:55Two kids. How old are you?

Amir Salihefendić

23:58I'm 35.

Nathan Latka

24:00Last question. What's something you wish you knew when you were 20?

Amir Salihefendić

24:08Yeah. Something... Yeah.

24:12That you can probably do anything that you actually want to do. So I think there's so much freedom and a lot of people think there's limits, and I don't really believe in that.

Nathan Latka

24:24Guys, doist.com, a multimillion user productivity tool, has passed $14,000,000 in terms of run rate, up from 10,000,000 last year. But this all started back in 2007 as a side project where he hit his first 200 customers was profitable from day one. They've bootstrapped the company today, also now launching Twist, which is a new product line doing $600,000 a year in revenue. He says absolutely no interest in selling. Amir, thank you for taking us to the top.

Amir Salihefendić

24:50Thank you for having me.

Nathan Latka

24:52One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM Central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers, they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU, CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it. And the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday, 1PM

25:17central. Additionally, remember these recorded founder interviews go live. We release them here on YouTube every day at 2PM central. To make sure you don't miss any of that, make sure you click the subscribe button below here on YouTube, the big red button, and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live. I wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the SaaS world, whether it's an acquisition, a big

25:38fundraise, a big sale, a big profitability statement, or something else. I don't want you to miss it. Additionally, if you wanna take this conversation deeper and further, we have by far the largest private Slack community for B2B SaaS founders. You wanna get in there. We've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing. You can go in there and quickly search and see what people are saying. Sign up for

25:59that at nathanlatka.com/slack. In the meantime, I'm hanging out with you here on YouTube. I'll be in the comments for the next thirty minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode. And if you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up. We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, but I do it so that we can all learn. We have to counter those people. We gotta

26:18push them away. Click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that I appreciate your guys' support. Alright. I'll be in the comments. See you.