How iTrinity Reached $25M ARR and 56% EBITDA Margin Across 8 SaaS Products (Interview with CEO Mike Afanas)

Introduction and Portfolio Overview

Nathan Latka

00:00In ten seconds, you're gonna meet a CEO that did $25,000,000 of revenue last year and profited $14,000,000 bottom line right to his bank account. He wants to use those profits to buy your software company. In fact, he's done it eight times already in other deals. He typically pays two to eight x ARR, and it's always a 100% cash upfront. Over the next twenty minutes, you're gonna learn how to build a multimillion dollar software company and then

00:28exit and become a millionaire selling to somebody like Mike. Let's jump in.

00:34My guest today is Mike Afanas. He is building a company called itrinity. Today, their portfolio of SaaS companies make is made up of one bootstrap company. Seven have been acquired. The total ARR is over $25,000,000. We'll get into how he thinks about acquisitions, the last deal he did, valuations, multiples, and how he's building in the SEO space over the next twenty minutes. Mike, you ready to take us to the top?

Mike Afanas

00:57>> Fantastic. I am ready.

Total Revenue and Biggest Product

Nathan Latka

00:58I want to talk about the total portfolio today, and then we'll go back to your first deal and build the backstory. So the company today, how much total revenue does the combined firm do? And is there a particular product that you acquired that makes up the majority of that revenue?

Mike Afanas

01:13>> So in total, it is right now approximately about 25,000,000 USD in ARR. There is not the one that would be like majority. A little bit strong is uptime robot, but there are also like seven and other products.

Nathan Latka

01:27Which one is there anyone that makes up you know, you you have Topic Ranker, Deadline Funnel, TouchDay, others. Which one of these had the most revenue when you acquired it?

Mike Afanas

01:35>> That's a hard question. Most probably the Deadline Funnel.

Nathan Latka

01:40Deadline Funnel. And and you did that deal in July 2024. Right?

Mike Afanas

01:44>> Yes. Yes.

Nathan Latka

01:45Okay. Well, we'll jump into that in a second, but you have 25,000,000 of revenue today. And just so can get a growth rate, so you ended, call it, 2024 with 25,000,000. Where did you end 2023 in terms of revenue? Do you remember?

Revenue Growth Rate and Historical ARR

Mike Afanas

01:57>> I think the last, like, twenty four to twenty three revenue growth is around, like, 46%.

Nathan Latka

02:04Okay. So you're doing something like 18,000,000 of revenue at the end of twenty twenty three and grew 46%?

Mike Afanas

02:09>> Very close.

Nathan Latka

02:10Okay. At the end of twenty twenty one, was around $7-7.5 million.

02:167,000,000. Okay.

Mike Afanas

02:18>> In the last three years, increased the ARR approximately a little bit more than three times.

Company Origins and Founding Story

Nathan Latka

02:26And Mike, let's just keep working backwards here. When did you launch this business, this idea? What year?

Mike Afanas

02:30>> We really started or actually it wasn't me. It was the original founder of the of the Mangools, Petr Helbachik. He started it ten years ago by the keywordfinder.com, then made the, let's say, SEO tool set called the Mangools. This was approximately ten years ago. Yeah. And then we started approximately

02:54>> at the year 2018 by acquiring the email list verified, then the uptime robot. It's it's really famous one. I love it. Warm up inbox in 2021, and then in '23 and '24, another four products, Geotarget, LeadTouchState, Deadline Funnel, and the last one, Topic Ranker.

Nathan Latka

03:13And so what year did you guys pass a million of revenue? Do you remember?

Mike Afanas

03:16>> First 1,000,000 in the revenue was approximately in in 2000

Nathan Latka

03:24And what's your context here? You mentioned an original founder built Keyword Finder plus an SEO toolset in 2014. Did you buy that from him or what's your role?

Mike Afanas

03:34>> No, no, no. The original founder, Petr Verbacek, still part of the company. I'm just the CEO, you know. So he's just like, don't want to do the execution anymore. So practically, but still extremely active, still very like on the daily, daily, daily way, trying to help us with another product.

PaleFire Capital Partnership and Ownership Structure

Nathan Latka

03:52Okay. So we got going in 2014. You guys passed a million of revenue 2016, 2017 with the tools that he built himself. Right? When did you get the idea that instead of can you just keep building and, you know, going, you know, one, two, three month of revenue in 2018, you wanted to get really aggressive with acquisitions? What what flipped that switch? And what year did you join the company as CEO?

Mike Afanas

04:10>> Yeah. So at that time, when the first idea was here, okay, so what about to make the new some acquisitions? There was the Palefire Capital coming into the seed scene. Palefire Capital is the private equity fund in in The Czech Republic. And practically, the original founders of the Mangools have a deal that, okay, let's acquire the email list verify. Let's acquire it 5050. And it somehow works like it was it was really like not bad, working

04:38>> fantastically. One year later, we acquired another product, Uptime Robot, and again it was fifty fifty together with Palefire Capital. And practically, step by step, we acquired all another products fifty fifty by Palefire Capital. So today, all products are, let's say, somehow by 50% owned by the Palefire Capital private equity fund. By the way, they're open quite reasonable amount of the groupon.com in The US, quite famous. One of the founders or the partners of the Palefire Capital,

05:15>> Dušan Šenkypl, is right now the CEO of the Groupon.

Nathan Latka

05:19So, yeah, looking I'm I'm sharing the screen right now. You know, you guys can see palefirecapital.com. They list uptime robot here as part of their portfolio. But if we go to itrinity here on Crunchbase, you guys also have uptime robot here in 2019. Does Palefire own 50% of the entire itrinity portfolio, or is each deal an individual LLC under the parent company itrinity, and you split the equity in each of the child brands with, you know,

05:46an equity investor like Palefire?

Mike Afanas

05:49>> The second option is the exact license.

Nathan Latka

05:52Okay, got it. So basically, if I go to your SaaS portfolio here, every single one of these, Mangools, Email List, these are all individual companies that are wholly owned by itrinity. But Uptime Robot might be 50% itrinity and 50% owned by Palefire.

Mike Afanas

06:09>> No, no. Every product is owned by the itrinity and the itrinity is owned by 50% Palefire Capital, 50% original Mangools founders. And by the way, Palefire Capital is owning like a lot of another businesses.

Nathan Latka

06:25How much total capital has Palfire put into itrinity?

Mike Afanas

06:34>> Actually, it wasn't done in the way that that they are putting some, let's say, capital. It was just done in the way of of making the acquisitions. So practically, the valuation was was paid by 50% by the original by ITRINTY founders and the 50% by the Palefire Capital.

Topic Ranker Acquisition Story

Nathan Latka

06:52I see. Okay. Well, let's go to the sort of the the whole reason that this got started, which was I've been close with this gentleman here, Dmitry. He's came on my podcast before and talked about the growth of one of his SEO tools. And he said, hey. We've just acquired we we just have been acquired by Mike and his group. So why don't you tell that story? We can jump into the deal. What How did you

07:11meet Dmitry and what tool did you acquire?

Mike Afanas

07:15>> So, you know, the topic ranker is practically the SEO tool, and we had the experience with the Mangools. I don't even remember how the communication started, but I think that Dmitry just outreach us. Like, hey, guys, I have this tool. I know that you have Mangools. I know it for ten years. What do you think about this? And then we simply discuss, discuss, and, yeah, at the end, we acquired it.

Nathan Latka

07:38Let's dig in a little bit more to the details here. So if you want to check out, it's topicranker.com, correct?

Mike Afanas

07:43>> Yes, exactly.

Nathan Latka

07:45And if we go look, let me just go look up what Dmitry told me really quick. Topic ranker. Let's see if it pops up here. Topic

07:56topic topic ranker. Okay. Don't see it popping up, but maybe you can give us some context here. So when he reached out to you, obviously, this deal, it sounds like it just closed. Right? When did the deal close?

Mike Afanas

08:07>> It was like several months ago, think, or three, four months ago.

Nathan Latka

08:14Okay. So like November 2024, you guys acquired this company?

Mike Afanas

08:18>> I think September, October, something like this.

Nathan Latka

08:21Okay. And how much revenue was the company doing when you bought it?

Mike Afanas

08:27>> Actually, the Topganker is the smallest company from our portfolio. So the revenue is not like the really huge one. But the fantastic thing was that it was like extremely, extremely growing practically in the 2024, growed up three times already. And also, we really laughed at the

08:48>> knowledge of Dmitry. So practically, we heavily thought about this acquisition in the way that, okay, so if we would have the Dmitry here, maybe he can help us also with the Mangools, because Dmitry stayed with us still developing and growing the Topic Ranker. How

Nathan Latka

09:05low was the revenue then? Are we talking like 500,000, a 250,000, a million?

Mike Afanas

09:10>> It was somewhere between 0.25 and 500,000.

Nathan Latka

09:13Okay. And when you say growing, you know, 3x year over year, obviously it's easy to grow a dollar of revenue to $3 of revenue and call it 3x growth. What else did you like about the business where you thought Dmitry could be applied to your other brands to grow them significantly?

Mike Afanas

09:28>> Yeah. So practically, we have seen

09:34>> some basic ideas behind the

09:39>> similar ideas behind behind the Mangools and Topic Ranker and the SEO space. And actually, have seen the entrepreneur mindset of Dmitry. And also he's really good, let's say, corporations with all other, let's say, influencers in the SEO market. This is something that we are right now using on both of these products.

Topic Ranker Deal Structure and Dmitry's Retained Stake

Nathan Latka

10:01And so how did you negotiate the deal? It sounds like the most important thing to you was keeping Dmitry for a long time. So what was the sort of total price you paid and how long does Dmitry have to stay at itrinity?

Mike Afanas

10:11>> So Topic Ranker is the only one, let's say, deal that we have done in the way that it's not 100% buyout. Dmitry still opens, I think 35% of the Topic Ranker, we own 65. All other products, itrinity owns exactly 100% of the product or let's say of the company. So this is like the best motivation to stay. We spent some time together, like talking with Dmitry about all of this, and we find out that just the

10:41>> cooperation between us, we would be definitely enjoying from both sides. I think we learned quite a lot from Dmitry and he's learning from us. It's really fantastic.

Nathan Latka

10:51That's helpful. So what, Mike, I understand this was your smallest deal, but what was the total deal price? Did you pay 1x revenue, 5x revenue, something else?

Mike Afanas

10:59>> I just don't remember right now. Sorry, I would be guessing. The price was a little bit low, so I I was not that much in, like, concentrated on the on the multiplier at this deal.

Nathan Latka

11:11Well, when you there are a lot of people listening right now that have tools doing $200, $300 of revenue. So the more detail you can give them, the more helpful it is. Maybe they come to you in the future because they know you structure your deals. I find it hard to believe you don't remember anything at all because this was your most recent acquisition. You've only done eight over the past ten years. So what can you

11:27share about even if it was a low multiple, what did you pay like total deal price for the business?

Mike Afanas

11:32>> Yeah. So maybe in overall, practically, our typical multipliers are something like between 2.0 to eight point eight point zero. I think all seven acquisitions were somewhere in this range. And it was really like we we even bought some product before the 2.0 ARR multiplier, but also something close, like 7.6, I think, or 7.7 multiplying. Which was

Nathan Latka

11:58the 7.7?

Mike Afanas

12:00>> I would keep this for me, if not a big deal for you. And what is really important for us that we are trying to make super simple and super easy deals. You know, we are entrepreneurs. I hate like much of, you know, lawyers things and all of this stuff. So practically, we are trying to make it completely all cash. No earn outs. Super simple, super easy. Practically, we are paying 80% of the valuation immediately at the

12:28>> closing and the 20% within maybe three months after.

Nathan Latka

12:32Okay. So just to clear, on

12:34the past seven acquisitions, they've all been 80% cash at close, 20% in escrow that gets released within, call it, six months.

Mike Afanas

12:40>> Three to six months after some asset transfer, know how transfer or yeah. And we are really open also to like the asset deal only if the founder do not want to sell the whole company or like really the share deal, that means like legally buy the whole entity. Depends. Sometimes even we are just buying the companies without employees. It's also in some special cases, it's not like super often, but some of the deals we also have

13:09>> done in the way that simply we just bought the assets Typically from the solo founder, you know. If there is a solo founder and he just don't want to spend like more of his life with this product, we just buy the assets and try to make it working.

Nathan Latka

13:24Let's go back. You said the biggest deal was Uptime Robot?

Mike Afanas

13:26>> Biggest deal, not even from the, like, valuation point of view, but today it's the biggest. We growed him from

Nathan Latka

13:35Biggest by what? Like, do mean big it's it's a total deal price with the biggest, or it was the most revenue you bought, or the biggest team size? What do you mean it was the biggest?

Mike Afanas

13:42>> Today ARR is the biggest.

Nathan Latka

13:44Okay. Okay, got it. So of the $25,000,000 that the combined company does today, the biggest chunk of that comes from the Uptime Robot product?

Mike Afanas

13:51>> Sorry once again.

Nathan Latka

13:52Of all the 25,000,000 of total revenue the business does today, you're saying the majority of that revenue, the biggest chunk of that revenue comes from the uptime robot product?

Mike Afanas

14:01>> Approximately one third. Like, maybe 35%, something like that.

Uptime Robot: Freemium Model and Free Users

Nathan Latka

14:06Okay. Well, why don't you tell me about that story? Why did you guys like the deal? So it's a free website monitoring service here. How did you meet the founder, and did the deal follow your standard terms of 80% cash and 20% escrow?

Mike Afanas

14:20>> Yes. Uptime Robot was a very fantastic deal because it was very close to the nature of most of the funders, and that is like the development of the DevOps. And what was really cool about the Uptime Robot and still is that it has the huge free freemium user base. There are like over 2,000,000 free users using the UpTime Robot. So there is the the I would say fantastic, let's say, discussions about the UpTime Robot on the

14:47>> forums. The

14:49>> people are really loving it, because we offering fantastic free plan. Most of our users, of course, are on the free plan. So the mark from the marketing point of view, the word-of-mouth is the most strongest marketing that is working here.

15:09>> And I would say, like, this is exactly what we loved on on this product.

Uptime Robot Paying Customers and ARPU

Nathan Latka

15:12What do you consider a good current conversion rate from the free plan over here on the left to the $7 per month plan or a paid plan?

Mike Afanas

15:20>> Let me check. I can't tell you exactly.

Nathan Latka

15:23Because I mean, if it makes up one third of current revenue and it's 25,000,000 is total revenue, so one third would be something like $7,000,000. I mean, 7,000,000 divided by $7 a month would be a million, you know, a million people, you know, a million folks paying $7 a month, for example. That's a lot.

Mike Afanas

15:38>> Yeah. Yeah. But I think we have something around 35, 40,000 paying customers, something like this.

Nathan Latka

15:45Okay. Got it. So if we take 7,000,000 divided by 35,000, the average one's paying maybe $200 a month. So you're you're doing a lot of enterprise upselling here.

Mike Afanas

15:55>> The 20, not 200.

15:59>> ARPU.

Nathan Latka

16:01A $20 ARPU?

Mike Afanas

16:03>> Something like that.

Nathan Latka

16:05Okay. From 35,000 paying customers?

Mike Afanas

16:09>> Yes.

Nathan Latka

16:10Yeah. Yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah. Because I annualized it. Yeah, that's exactly right. Got it. So they're in between the solo and sort of the team plan here. So are you happy with that conversion rate? 35,000 paid on 2,000,000 free. Are you guys testing things to improve that?

Mike Afanas

16:22>> Of course, we are always testing, but also we just don't want to be too much aggressive. Actually, you know, there is a huge value in the in these free users. It's it's as I said, they are making marketing for us. It's it's unbelievable. And this community is huge. We have, like, really, really fantastic people here. So, you know, you can try to like push it and squeeze it. But practically, like from the long term EBITDA point

16:48>> of view, it doesn't make much sense because if you are just make like make happy these free users,

16:55>> Very typical case is that there is some, you know, young developer that is using the Uptime Robot bot for their for his hobbies, then he's getting simply hired into some company, And then he simply convince the the company that, hey, guys, let's let's use the Uptime Robot because it's it's fantastic. And then they are paying because of this. Practically, you know, all of this conversion channel, it's it's it's fantastic. And, yeah, we are just happy with even

17:21>> having like 2,000,000 of the free users and try to How

Nathan Latka

17:24much revenue are you paying out every month to Uptime Robot Affiliates? Is it significant?

Mike Afanas

17:31>> Let me check the actual numbers. But I think it's just like several tens of thousands. It's it's it's not a per month. It's it's nothing nothing.

Organic SEO and Content Strategy

Nathan Latka

17:42Okay. What would you say what would you say is the is the number one growth tactic you're using at Uptime Robot?

Mike Afanas

17:48>> Well, we are the leader on the market. If you paste like the website monitoring into the Google, we are the third number one in the organic, at least shall be. And this is like bringing a lot of traffic.

18:05>> So practically, idea behind is to have the big enough, let's say, user base, even the free user base and generate quite a lot of organic traffic from the point of view of of some content generation.

18:24>> Practically, we are not paying much PPCs practically, maybe just, you know, protecting the the brand keywords. Anyway, the most of the

Nathan Latka

18:34I mean, we can quantify this here. You're paying for nine keywords. It's getting very little traffic. You're protecting the brand. But the flip side of that is you're getting about 77,000 organic traffic per month. This is as of 02/07/2025. There was also a huge spike recently on the number of keywords you guys are ranking for. Are you guys what's your are you guys running an intentional SEO play there, or is this happening by accident?

Mike Afanas

18:56>> We are generating quite a lot of nice articles, very typically, like heavily technically deep articles. It's not just like some marketing blah blah blah, but it's very close to some technical server related things. And yes, they are generating the traffic. That's really fantastic.

Nathan Latka

19:14Mhmm. Yeah. It looks like your knowledge hub here is where you're posting some of that stuff. Is it fair to say this is this is where you're getting most of your SEO traffic from?

Mike Afanas

19:23>> It's also this one. Definitely. Knowledge Hub is quite new.

Free Tools as Backlink and Traffic Strategy

Nathan Latka

19:26I mean, I look here though, Knowledge Hub is the number one number one place that you're getting traffic, organic traffic per month. You're also using a free tool strategy. That also seems to be working.

Mike Afanas

19:36>> We have a lot of lot of free tool strategy, not only for Uptime Robot, but for practically most of the most of our products.

Nathan Latka

19:43Well, tell me more about that. Why is that working so well? Do you have any other examples of free tools on other products that really convert well for you?

Mike Afanas

19:50>> Definitely. On the warm up inbox, there are on the warm up inbox, if you will look Sorry.

Nathan Latka

19:55Which one is it? Warm up inbox?

Mike Afanas

19:57>> Yeah. Yeah. There are several like the placement free tools.

20:03>> Yeah. There is the list of free tools even in top menu.

Nathan Latka

20:07Oh, at the top menu. Yeah. Wow. Okay.

Mike Afanas

20:10>> So and So how

Nathan Latka

20:11many how much traffic do you get from these per month? Like, do you have a guess?

Mike Afanas

20:16>> I have, but it would take me maybe three, four minutes to find it out. Anyway, first of all, it's getting a lot of traffic. But second of all, it's really generating the backlinks. Because free tools that are useful get the organic backlinks. And then this backlink simply improves, you know, the domain authority and practically increasing your organic traffic even to the main page.

Nathan Latka

20:47Yep. Yeah. Your domain authority here for Warm Up Inbox, you know, has gone from, you know, call it, you know, 39 back in 2022 up to, you know, 59, 60 now, actually 60 as of today. So got it. So this free tool is really for you are more it's not necessarily about direct traffic. It's a lot more about a backlink profile.

Mike Afanas

21:06>> Also, but also we are working quite nicely even with this traffic that is there are coming to these free tools, trying to convert them step by step. But yeah, I think we are trying like both. There are like both usage. First of all, this one and second one to to to generate the backlink magnet.

Email Marketing and PPC Approach

Nathan Latka

21:26So what else? Free tools, it sounds like it's the top growth strategy across the user base. What's maybe the second most powerful growth tactic you guys have used?

Mike Afanas

21:33>> I think what is really working quite nice is the email marketing. We are trying to have like some very nice onboarding sequences for the free users. Practically all of our products have the free plan for seven, ten days or for fourteen days, and then trying to to convert them into the paying customers. This works really, really great. On the products where it makes sense, we are trying also to push a little bit PPC, but not much.

22:02>> This is like typically for for protecting the banked keyboards. We are not that good on the social media, I would say. It's generating some nice traffic, but this traffic is is barely very not not much converting.

EBITDA Margin and Use of Profits

Nathan Latka

22:16This makes a lot of sense. Well, Mike here, as we get closer to wrapping up here, just to summarize again, 25,000,000 in total revenue in 2024. How much did you guys profit that year? Do you remember?

Mike Afanas

22:25>> Practically our like in total EBITDA margin is around like, I think this year it was 56%. So yeah, it's 56%. And we're

Nathan Latka

22:33recording here in February. So when you say this year, you're referring to 2024?

Mike Afanas

22:37>> Yes, exactly.

Nathan Latka

22:38So 56% profits of $14,000,000 on 25,000,000 top line. What do you Mike, what do you do with all that extra money? Pay it out as dividends or you save it in your bank, what do you do?

Mike Afanas

22:48>> This is exactly the way how we are making the acquisitions. So practically this free cash we are using for the next acquisition. So we are completely like bootstrapped, like no debt at all. So

Nathan Latka

23:00But not bootstrapped. Right? Because you have raised a big chunk of money from the firm that helped that buy from PaleFire Capital. Right?

Mike Afanas

23:08>> Could be like taken this way. I wouldn't call it this way exactly, but practically this free cash that is generating generating for also the Palefire Capital, they are investing back to to make next acquisitions.

Team Structure Across 8 Products

Nathan Latka

23:21I see. And last question, you're doing this all with a team of 90 people. Do you have a shared services org at the top, like, you know, the SEO team is at the top and they sort of parachute into the eight brands once a month, Or does each of the eight brands have their own full time teams?

Mike Afanas

23:35>> This depends. For example, for the marketing team, we have like really the one that is matured for for the all eight products. But for example, for the development team, typically, we have like a very separated development teams. Regarding the product, we have maybe two or three teams together and some like completely standalone. So it depends. Customer support also typically one customer support guy is taking care about two or three products that is like close to each

24:03>> other. Yes. Sales guys typically for one or two products. So it depends.

AI Search and Future of SEO

Nathan Latka

24:09Are you worried about people churning off your SEO tools? Because many people are arguing the conversational agents is where all the future traffic is gonna come from. Like, do you show up in chat GPT? Who cares about the first page of Google anymore? Do you worry about that?

Mike Afanas

24:22>> Of course. And this is the reason why on Mangools, we just released the AI search grader. So practically, we are trying to make a full full featured, let's say, SEO from the point of view of the AI tools. You can try it. It looks fantastic.

Nathan Latka

24:36What's the website on that if people wanna give it a try?

Mike Afanas

24:39>> Just the mangools.com. I'm sure you will find it here.

Nathan Latka

24:42Mangools.com?

Mike Afanas

24:44>> Yeah, mangools.com. It's of the Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

24:51It. Very cool. So people can use this to figure out if they're gonna show and chat GPT results or things like that.

Mike Afanas

24:55>> Yeah. Try it. It's really fantastic. It's unbelievable. It's very, very new.

Nathan Latka

24:59Awesome. Alright, Mike. Anything else before we wrap up? You want people to know where can they find you online if they wanna learn more?

Mike Afanas

25:04>> Just the itrinity.com. Practically, are searching for two kinds of people. First off are the founders who might be maybe willing to sell their business to us or grow with us together. And the second thing is we are always hiring. We are growing quite a lot. So we are searching for some people who have like full of anti anism and are ready to join on the boat. Itrinity.com, there are the contact.

Nathan Latka

25:26Guys, you just met Mike back in 2014. His partner started building keyword tools, boot bootstrapped it to about a million bucks of revenue in 2016, 2017. And in 2018, they started acquiring businesses. Fast forward to today they've acquired eight businesses. In 2024 they did 25,000,000 of top line revenue with $14,000,000 of bottom line, that's cash, EBITDA margin. They're using that money now looking for their next acquisition. They're paying on average between two and eight x of

25:53ARR, it just depends. But the nice thing is is Mike will give you a clean simple deal. They're typically paying all cash upfront, about 80% cash upfront, and then holding 20% in escrow for call it three to six months while the knowledge transfer happens. There's no stock thing. There's no eight year earn out that, you know, you don't have to work there for the next ten years or anything like that. Nice, clean deal. They've got 90

26:12people on the team today running these eight tools, the biggest one being a tool called Uptime Robot, which makes it about one third of the total revenue. Mike, thanks for taking us to the top.

Mike Afanas

26:21>> Nathan, thank you very much.

Nathan Latka

26:24Now folks, there are hundreds of firms like Mike's firm that love bootstrapping, and they love bootstrap founders. They'll acquire your business, you know, once you hit $23.04, $5,000,000 for anywhere from 2 to eight x, but only if you control your destiny. You know, if you if you go to 4 or 5,000,000 of revenue, but you've raised $10,000,000, it's really hard to make money as a founder because you're underwater. That's why at Founderpath, you know, I'm operating

26:47out of our out of our third fund. It's a $180,000,000 fund. We like backing bootstrapped or capital efficient founders that that can scale and eventually sell to somebody like Mike. You know, Mike makes millionaires overnight, SaaS millionaires overnight. If you're looking to grow your business and keep control, avoid, you know, a board, avoid selling equity, I would love to back you out of our third fund. Again, we've deployed about a 180,000,000 total dollars today into 518

27:14software founders. We would love to get behind you as well. Go to founderpath.com to get your offer in under sixty seconds. Again, that's founderpath.com. I'll see you there.