How Knak Bootstrapped to a $25M Series A and Grew Over 100% Year Over Year in Codeless Enterprise Email Creation (Interview with Founder Pierce Ujjainwalla)

Introduction and Knak Overview

Nathan Latka

00:00Hey, folks. My guest today is Pierce Ujjainwalla. He's a career marketer who's lived in the marketing trenches of companies like IBM, SAP, and Marketo. He launched knak, that's k n a k, in 2015 as a platform designed to help marketers simplify email creation. He's also the founder of RevenuePulse, a marketing operations consultancy. Pierce, you ready to take us to the top?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

00:19>> Let's do it.

Nathan Latka

00:20Alright. So you came on back in December last year, so about a year ago, and told me that knak had passed about 600 customers. Tell me more about growth today. Are you adding more customers, or are you expanding the historical ones?

Growth Rate and Customer Base

Pierce Ujjainwalla

00:33>> Yeah. We have continued to grow our our business at, you know, over a 100% year over year. We were just named one of Canada's top growing companies where we posted over 500% revenue growth over the last three years. And so, yeah, we're we're growing within new accounts, within our existing accounts. We see a lot where we'll get into an account with, you know, one team there, and it grows globally across an enterprise. So lots of exciting

01:09>> stuff happening.

Nathan Latka

01:10And for the those folks that don't know knak or missed a worse interview together, what are these customers paying you for? Describe your product a bit.

What Knak Does: Codeless Email Creation

Pierce Ujjainwalla

01:17>> Yeah. So knak is a codeless enterprise campaign creation platform. And so for everyone out there, you know, you all receive these beautiful marketing emails with the banners and buttons. Well, somebody is coding those most of the time. And an average marketing email is like 800 lines of code. And so marketers, well, they're not developers. They're marketers. And so what that means is that historically, they've had to work with developers or really expensive and slow agencies to

01:58>> get this done. And with knak, well, we're giving them the power back to be able to do all of this themselves and really unlock the creativity that they got into marketing to do in the first place.

Nathan Latka

02:11Mhmm. And it sounds like, again, folks are using it. You said a 100% year over year growth. Is that true of the customer base as well? So 600 customers a year ago means about, what, 1,200 now?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

02:20>> Yeah. So we don't disclose how many customers we have, but we do have hundreds of customers, thousands of users all over the world. And, yeah, I mean, we are replacing the status quo 95% of the time. And so, yeah, when customers

Nathan Latka

02:38Pierce, what changed, man? I get before you raise, you're bootstrapped, you come on, you share your customer account. Now what your board says, Pierce, gotta be you gotta be more conservative. Be less fun on interviews. No more no more customer numbers.

Why Knak Stopped Sharing Customer Numbers

Pierce Ujjainwalla

02:50>> No. I think you had speculated our customer number. I did a long time ago, but we've had a lot of changes with our business model. You know? Initially, like any founder, we went out with let let's do get as many customers as easily as possible. So it's $99 a month credit card, no sales calls. Now we've we've really shifted. And when we're working with these large enterprise customers, they want us to they wanna talk to a

03:23>> salesperson. They wanna get comfortable. We have to go through procurement, security, all that fun stuff that you get to do with enterprise companies.

Nathan Latka

03:32Well, last question on customer stuff. So, I mean, when you say hundreds and then thousands of users, so, I mean, do you think you can break a thousand actual paid customers next year, over the next twelve months?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

03:43>> So we're we are continuing to grow, you know, triple digit every year. We're really focused on helping all the marketers out there. That's why I'm so excited about our raise. You know?

Nathan Latka

03:57So so, Pierce, if you grow a 100% over the next twelve months, you're basically saying if you keep on that growth trajectory, you'll break a thousand paying customers next year.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

04:05>> So we're all about getting every marketer to be able to unlock that creativity that they have within them. And that's why we're raising to be able to get to as many customers in this space.

Nathan Latka

04:19You're raising again or you're talking about the raise you just completed?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

04:22>> No, no, the one that we just did.

Nathan Latka

04:24Yep. So so you and and so let's jump into that then. Right? So you raised how much capital and is this your first tranche or have you raised prior?

The $25M Series A with Insight Partners

Pierce Ujjainwalla

04:31>> Yeah. So we are proudly bootstrapped right up until our series a. We didn't raise any money before then. And we just announced the $25,000,000 series a with Insight Partners.

Nathan Latka

04:45Why'd you do it, Pierce? I mean, you give up a lot. I mean, you just give up a lot. Right? And going from bootstrap to raid. And this wasn't a little raids. This was like, you're definitely on the VC track now. You have to make it work.

Why Pierce Decided to Raise

Pierce Ujjainwalla

04:56>> Yeah. You know, like I said, we're proudly bootstrapped up into the race. And we had our year end in the summertime this year. And we looked at, hey, what do we wanna do to continue growing the business and grow it as fast as we can? I'm a very conservative person by nature. And, you know, I think that's how we got here boot strapping. We didn't have to raise, but we we identified about 50 people that we

05:26>> wanted to hire on our team to accelerate growth. And if we continue to bootstrap and do it that way, it would have taken a lot longer. And we all know with technology, time is of the essence than we felt like, hey, you know, the capital markets are great right now. It's very founder friendly, and we're able to find a great partner like Insight who can give us a lot more than just the capital. They have a

05:55>> huge network, great centers of excellence around scaling out software teams that are our size. And it felt like a great opportunity that we can say no to.

Nathan Latka

06:06What's team size today, Pierce?

Team Size and Hiring Plans

Pierce Ujjainwalla

06:09>> We are currently 45 people.

Nathan Latka

06:1345. Great. Well, it sounds like some aggressive hiring plans. Now, most founders, especially going out doing like a first raise like this at this size, like this pattern, if you're picking insight, many founders will pick insight because insight many times will let founders take secondaries, especially if the founders are early employees or early investors, angels, etcetera, have been slicking away at it for a long time. You guys were launched, I believe in 2015, right? So you've

06:34been at it for six, seven years. Was all that 25,000,000 going directly on the balance sheet or were you able to create some liquidity for early employees, you know, founders, etcetera?

Secondary Sale and Founder Liquidity

Pierce Ujjainwalla

06:44>> Yeah. We definitely took out some secondary. Think to your point, you know, we we proved that we could build a good profitable business, and it felt like a good opportunity to take some of the chips off the table. Not just me, but I also felt like it was important and fair to let everybody in the company who had vested options the opportunity to sell as much as they wanted to. I have to say it was a

07:12>> pretty emotional moment for me when, like, the majority of our team didn't sell anything because they believe so much in our mission and what we can do in our future here at knak.

Nathan Latka

07:26Did you recommend they take some off the table to do things like buy a home, buy a car, start a family, pay off student debt, like life stuff?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

07:34>> I I definitely encourage them to do that. I I told them that I'm gonna personally be doing that and that, you know, it's fully their decision. And I think, yeah, that was something that that really did get me emotional was just that, you know, they had the opportunity to to really take chips off the table and make a good amount of money, but, you know, they're in it for the long haul, and I think they see

08:02>> the potential that we have ahead of us.

Nathan Latka

08:05How much of the 25,000,000 would you and Insight you would have been comfortable letting go to secondary? Obviously, it did not do that because people chose not to sell, but what was the maximum that you guys were comfortable with?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

08:16>> That I I that's something that I I can't disclose, but I will say that in talking to a lot of investors, and I think this is where where, you know, other founders who are out there thinking about this, the market has changed. Right? It's no longer that secondary is kind of, like, looked down upon. For us, it was something we always wanted to go into this deal with. It wasn't an option. We put that on the

08:43>> table to every investor, and none of them had any issues with what we're looking at.

Nathan Latka

08:49What did you say when you were kicking off the process? Did you phrase that as something like, we wanna take at least 5,000,000 off the table, or we want at least 10% of the round to be secondary? Did you phrase it as a flat number or a percentage? Like, how did you set the early expectations for this?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

09:03>> Yeah. We had a percentage and a number.

Nathan Latka

09:07Okay. So what if only one of those things hit? So what if what if you said 10%, but then the round was only 10,000,000, so you only had a million for secondary versus, you know, five, you know, you wanna take 5,000,000

Pierce Ujjainwalla

09:16>> off Well, that were they were together. Like, yeah, it was it was a number that was the percentage that we were looking for.

Nathan Latka

09:23Okay. Got it. So so by default, when you put those two things together, you can back into what the round size would need to be in order to hit both the percentage and the flat number.

Choosing Insight Over the Highest Valuation

Pierce Ujjainwalla

09:32>> Yep.

09:32Was insight the highest valuation or did you not optimize for valuation?

09:38>> Listen, I think there's a lot of companies out there right now, a lot of firms that will give you the highest valuation. But what we found is that those firms are really just about the capital. Right? They don't come with all of the resources that an insight does. So, of course, valuation is important and an insight was close to the top. But we looked at the full package. Right? Like I said before, we're looking to me,

10:10>> like half of the value is working with a firm that's done this hundreds of times and has the resources to help you grow. Mhmm.

Nathan Latka

10:20And and help me understand sort of where this came in. Right? So most people when they're doing a series a, I would say industry standards, you're selling somewhere between sort of 10 to 20% of the business. Did you fall into that same average or were you on an extreme for some reason?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

10:33>> Yeah. Again, I can't disclose the valuation, but I will say that, like I said before, the market right now is very founder friendly, and we were very happy with the dilution that we're able to achieve on this round and our valuation.

Nathan Latka

10:51Pierce, it's really important for my listeners to try and understand things that they should negotiate for when they go into their rounds. And so you providing any kind of range is helpful. I didn't ask you name the valuation because I know you can't disclose that, but can you can provide some sort of range for my audience? I mean, 10 to 20%, again, is pretty standard here.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

11:07>> Yeah. Yeah. To me, if you're giving up more than 20% equity in a series a, like everyone's different. But personally, I would never do that.

Nathan Latka

11:17Yep. Yep. Okay. Cool. That makes sense. Yeah. You were seeing, you know, Chili Piper just sold 7,000,000 secondary at a 625,000,000 valuation with 15,000,000 in revenue. But that's very different than what Lemlist just did, which was sell 30,000,000 for 20% of the business at 150,000,000 valuation with 10,000,000 revenue. Very different multiple profiles there, but obviously both included secondary. So cool, that makes sense to you. And were you able to make this decision yourself, or did you

11:39have a bunch of co founders you had to get get everyone on the same page and agree with?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

11:43>> So I do have two other co founders that were were really aligned as a leadership team, and we all felt like this is the right thing to do for the business. Mhmm.

Nathan Latka

11:53And did you guys when you launched back in 2015, you had a consultancy, how you think you brought in. I don't know, like, if someone put up more money for the MVP or stuff, or did you guys just split it evenly right at the beginning in 2015 or no?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

12:06>> So so I yeah. So I actually founded the company in 2015, and then my co founders came on later, like, seventeen, twenty eighteen.

Nathan Latka

12:16I see. Got it. Got it. Got it. So you obviously own more than it wasn't even split.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

12:22>> Right.

Nathan Latka

12:23Tell me more about how the agency plays into this. You still put that in your bio, which means it's still important to you. At least your PR people put it in your bio for this interview. So help me understand how the agency plays in here.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

12:33>> Yeah. Revenue Pulse is the first business that I started. I think all entrepreneurs know that there's kind of a special attachment to that. I realized a couple of years ago that really my focus was on knak, and that's what got me out of bed every day and got me super energized. So I hired an amazing CEO, Joe Peters, to run the RevenuePulse business for me. RevenuePulse continues to grow every year, and it's a great way that

13:04>> consultancy is where we keep our pulse on what is happening in the marketing operations community, which is who we sell into at knak every day. So there's a lot of synergy between the two companies, both revenue pulse identifying new opportunities for knak and knak opportune identifying opportunities the other way for services.

Typical Enterprise Customer and Rising Price Points

Nathan Latka

13:30Mhmm. Tell me more about like the typical kind of customer. You mentioned early on price plans are $99 a month, no touch, right? Sign up with a credit I imagine price points like your average ARPU has increased since then. I think last episode you said you were much closer to like a thousand bucks a month was sort of your sweet spot.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

13:48>> Yeah. So prices continue to to go up. I think we're really focused on the enterprise. So the typical customer that works with us, I think our sweet spot, you know, that these are billion dollar plus a year companies. They have marketers spread across the globe, hundreds or thousands of marketers. And they really need the collaboration capabilities that knak provides, the brand control, the ease of use, and the ability to empower all of their marketers to be

14:24>> creative and and integrate seamlessly into their marketing automation platform. So we continue to work with a lot of Marketo customers, Eloqua, Responsys, Marketing Cloud, Pardot. All of those marketers need our help.

Nathan Latka

14:42You have knak templates, which are free. That's sort of your top of funnel, helps maybe make CAC more efficient. You then have to work hard both in product and your sales team to move them into knak solo, which is a $10,000 a year commitment. Free to 10,000 a year is obviously a big move. What sorts of things do you do in between those two plans to make sure people move up?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

15:02>> Yeah. Again, our goal is really to help marketers. And a lot of marketers are still in the mindset that they need a template. Templates are kind of the old way of how marketers used to accomplish creating an email or a landing page. So that was our initial product, Nathan. That that was the one that we used to sell for $99 a month. We are giving that away now because, again, we want to position knak as the

15:32>> company that is there to help marketers no matter where they are on their journey. I think what we see is once those marketers use the templates and realize really the the pitfalls of using templates, how they're slow and rigid and hard to change, that's when they open their mind to like, hey, actually do need a better way of of creating a campaign. And they naturally look to knak, solo or enterprise to get that done.

Nathan Latka

16:06Mhmm. And and were you able to ride that $99 a month plan? I'm I'm trying to figure out what took you to your first million dollar in revenue and what year that was. I mean, was that like 2016, 2017?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

16:16>> Yeah. So the $99 a month plan was so important for us. Like, that is really how we learned how to onboard customers. Right? When you're in that freemium model, you need to know everything about how your product works, where people can get stuck, how you upsell them, how you get their feedback. And that is really what has helped us grow this whole time. And by listening to our customers, that's how we identified the opportunity to build

16:49>> this new product, this product that, you know, has way bigger potential. We think we're in a more than a billion dollar market here, and we have less than 1% market share. Right?

Why the $99 Plan Never Reached $1M

Nathan Latka

17:03Pierce, So you're killing me, man. So so so were you able to use $99 a month to break that million dollar run rate in, like, 2016, 2017? I'm just trying to get a sense of what you looked like when you broke a million.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

17:13>> We didn't we didn't get to a million on the $99 a month plan. We only got there after we pivoted to sales procurement, that whole process.

Nathan Latka

17:25And that was in 2018?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

17:28>> Don't know the date off off the top of my head.

Nathan Latka

17:31Which year did you break a million dollar run rate?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

17:35>> Again, I we don't disclose that.

Nathan Latka

17:38Pierce, this was years ago. Come on, man. You're making this very, very difficult on me. I people people like to understand the playbook zero to a million and then a million plus, and then now you're not bootstrapped and moving into VC. You gotta be able to give me some number here. Yeah.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

17:50>> No. I I think the way you get to a million is you have to continue to listen to your customers and figure out you know, look at your trends. Right? If you're

Nathan Latka

18:02Pierce, what year was that for you for knak? We want we wanna use numbers and then tie that to the tactics that you're communicating now. I mean, was that 2016, 2017 somewhere in there?

The Freemium Churn Problem

Pierce Ujjainwalla

18:10>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, you were I I do wanna help your listeners get to a million, and I'm trying to give some some examples of how to do that and how we got there. I think what we realized was that that freemium model wasn't gonna do it for us. It was really high churn. You have to realize your churn numbers. Right? How are you gonna get people to stay in your platform and how are you gonna

18:38>> build a scalable business for us?

Nathan Latka

18:40So how many years did learn that, How long did it take you to learn that? There's people listening right now maybe doing the same thing going, do I need to test this for a year, two years, three years?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

18:48>> I think we realized the freemium model wasn't gonna get us to where we needed to probably within a year, year and a half.

Nathan Latka

18:57Okay. So by '20 mid twenty sixteen, you were thinking, what did a sales motion look like, and how do I think about a higher price plan?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

19:03>> Yeah. Well, and I think what we what we learned again was that templates were not sticky. Right? And they were flawed still. That was the biggest learning that we had was we realized we're solving one part of our customer's issue, the marketer's issue, with the coding of the templates. But there were so many issues around that that we needed to really build a new product that would address all of those. So brand control, collaboration, integration with

19:39>> the marketing automation platforms, all of flexibility and the creativity component were huge. And that's what fueled a much, you know, stronger growth trajectory.

Nathan Latka

19:53Pierce, this makes a lot of sense. What are you most nervous about right now? You just brought in money. You have you have, we will call it a VC sugar daddy now. Right? Board meetings coming up. What are you nervous about?

Culture and Scaling Concerns

Pierce Ujjainwalla

20:04>> Yeah. I think as we grow, and I mentioned we wanna hire 50 people, one of our secret weapons that I think we have here at knak is our culture. It's amazing. You know, everybody loves coming to work. We just won best places to work in Ottawa. Our employee, ENPS, is, like, off the charts. I think it was 85 last time we did it. And so we're we're growing quickly. We're hiring 50 people. We're doubling the team.

20:34>> I wanna make sure that we're able to, you know, grow this culture into something really positive as we continue to grow the company. And I'd say that's something that's top of mind for me.

Sales Motion: One Quota-Carrying Rep

Nathan Latka

20:47Alright. Love that. And then real quick, round out the sales motion. You mentioned that this is critical to the ultimate success moving away from templates. How many, like, quota carrying sales reps do you have today?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

20:57>> Yeah. I mean, this is another beautiful part of this business is right now we only have one quota carrying rep.

Nathan Latka

21:05That's down from a year ago. You had told me you had three.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

21:10>> Well, we had two. We lost one over the summer. We're rehiring. But we've continued to double you know, triple digit growth of our revenue every year, and I think that just speaks to the need for a solution like knak in the market.

Nathan Latka

21:28Does that one sales rep talk to every single person that upgrades to the $10,000 per year plan, or do you have people that never touch your support or sales reps that go from 0 to $10,000 a year?

CSM Team and Expansion Revenue

Pierce Ujjainwalla

21:38>> We have a big CSM team and account management team that is is working on the upsells and account expansion. But our RA currently touches all of our new sales.

Nathan Latka

21:52Wow. Okay. How many are on the CSS team CSM team?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

21:57>> So I think we have five CSMs now.

Nathan Latka

22:00Should I ask more questions there? Are you doing something unique there? Is it pretty standard playbook?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

22:05>> I think, again, it just speaks to when we get knak when we get our customers using knak, they realize how this can transform their marketing department and how this can help them go way faster and way cheaper than ever before. And so there's a lot of organic growth that that is happening there.

Nathan Latka

22:29You're talking about expansion revenue. They go from 10,000 a year to 20,000 a year in their first 24

Pierce Ujjainwalla

22:35>> Oh, yeah. A lot of our customers like, keep in mind, we're selling to the enterprise. Right? So we might get one group at a company, maybe it's 10 people who try it in one location. And then their global team says, what are you guys doing over there? That's pretty cool. Let's now roll it out to the whole company. Now we have a 100 or 500 users. And so that's that's really how it's growing.

Nathan Latka

23:02Yeah. And is that I mean, that is the thing you put at the top of your pricing page. Individuals, one user is knak knak starter is five, and enterprise is five to a thousand users. Is that your most powerful upsell mechanism? It's the number of seats?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

23:14>> Yeah. So our pricing model is yeah. It's very simple. Right? It's just how many how many people are gonna be creating assets within knak.

Nathan Latka

23:25That's more powerful though than your feature based upselling, like built in workflows on your enterprise plan or customizing user access roles and permissions?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

23:34>> It really depends on the company. So the smaller companies, we find they just don't even need those necessarily need all of the features in the enterprise plan. Mhmm. Whereas big companies, they need all of that stuff. So it's usually kind of a combination of both features.

Nathan Latka

23:55Is all this sort of is all this code word for your guys'net dollar retention as well above a 100%?

Net Dollar Retention Confirmed Above 100%

Pierce Ujjainwalla

24:02>> I can confirm it's over a 100%.

Nathan Latka

24:05Boom. But hey, we got a number. Give this guy a little little thumbs up on iTunes or YouTube.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

24:10>> Give me something, Nathan.

Nathan Latka

24:12Hey, gotta give me something to work. I look. I kinda got the million dollar run rate in like 2016, twenty seventeen ish. I got a 100% or a dollar retention. I mean, this is nice growth. Couple 100 customers, but not a thousand but your free plan is driving a lot of new users because it's free obviously, but not a good product because it's not sticky, but again, helps your CSM team expand folks. So makes a lot

24:29of sense here. I know we're over time here. So let's wrap up with the famous five. Number one, favorite business book.

Famous Five Rapid Fire

Pierce Ujjainwalla

24:35>> What's one that I just read?

Nathan Latka

24:41>> Yeah.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

24:44>> One that I just read well, actually, I just read the bucket with Dyson. So the guy who started Dyson vacuums, which is interesting.

Nathan Latka

24:54Number two, is there a CEO you're following or studying?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

24:58>> I'm loving Michael Saylor right now. I'm a big Bitcoin person, and I think he just sees the future in ways that other people can't.

Nathan Latka

25:08What percent of your total net worth right now do you have at today's prices exposed to, Bitcoin and ETH or some form of crypto?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

25:15>> Over,

25:18>> let let's say a sizable amount, but more than 10%.

Nathan Latka

25:22Okay. I was I was waiting for you to go, like, 70%. I was gonna go, what? Alright. More than 10.

25:28>> Number three, what's your favorite online tool for building a knak?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

25:33>> Can I say knak?

Nathan Latka

25:35No.

25:35>> You can't

25:35>> Can't say knak.

25:37Says the says the marker of cover.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

25:39>> Yeah. Let's say, hey. You know, we can run our business without Slack, and they're great customer verse.

Nathan Latka

25:47Number four. How many hours of sleep do you get every night?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

25:52>> Seven to eight.

Nathan Latka

25:54Okay. And situation, married, single kiddos?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

25:57>> Married with a with a four and a six year old.

Nathan Latka

26:02Oh my god. Busy guy. Alright. How old are you, Pierce?

Pierce Ujjainwalla

26:05>> 36.

Nathan Latka

26:0636.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

26:08>> Gave you another number.

Nathan Latka

26:09I know. I'm getting all of these. I I just gotta ask the family question numbers. That's how I do this. Alright. Last question. Take us home. Something you wish you knew when you were 20.

Advice: Play the Long Game

Pierce Ujjainwalla

26:17>> Yeah. I think the older I get, the more I look at going for the long game. And that's something that I feel when I was younger, it was kind of much shorter term thinking. It's you have to be confident, stay focused, and keep your eye on the long game and good things happen.

Nathan Latka

26:39Guys, we're having a knak launch in 2015 off the back of a marketing agency. They now help enterprise brands do email much faster, much better. Marketing teams don't have to rely on their development teams to get things out the door. They're upselling like crazy over 100% net dollar retention, mainly focused on enterprises with more than 50 seats. Launched in 2015, just did a 25,000,000 round. Pierce feels selling to 10% to 20% of business is really what

27:00you should target in this sort of range. Anything above that feels a little uncomfortable. 45 on the team, hiring fast up there in Ottawa. Pierce, thanks for taking us to the top.

Pierce Ujjainwalla

27:08>> Thank you, Nathan. That was fun.

Nathan Latka

27:12One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM Central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers, they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday 1PM

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28:21for that at nathanlatka.com slack. In the meantime, I'm hanging out with you here on YouTube. I'll be in the comments for the next thirty minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode. If you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up. We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, but I do it so that we can all learn. We have to counter those people. We

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28:47See you.