Founder Interview
How Pulse Burned £1.48M to Reach 97% Prediction Accuracy and 50 Beta Users, Still Pre-Revenue (Interview with Founder Joe Kaul)
- Interview Date
- December 15, 2021
- Interviewee
- Joe KaulFounder
Company Metrics at Interview Time
Revenue (2021)
Pre-revenue
Paying Customers (2021)
0
Beta Users (2021)
50
Total Funding Raised
£150,000
Cash Burned Since Founding (2021)
£1,480,000
Historical Snapshot
These numbers were reported by Joe Kaul during his interview with Nathan Latka recorded in December 2021 and are a historical snapshot, not current figures. Pulse was pre-revenue at the time, with no paying customers. See Pulse’s current numbers.
Key Takeaways
- 01Pulse achieved 97% accuracy on its emotional response prediction model for ad creative content
- 0250 users had access to the platform in beta as of December 2021
- 03The company was pre-revenue at the time of the interview, with pricing set to launch in early 2022
- 04Pricing was set to run from £500 to £5,500 per month depending on how many campaigns an agency runs at once, and was not yet being charged to anyone at the time of the interview
- 05£150,000 came from private investors; the remainder of burn came from Joe Kaul personally
- 06Total cash burned since founding in June 2020 reached £1,480,000 by the time of the interview
- 07The team consisted of 15 people total, including 7 engineers
- 08Joe Kaul founded Pulse in June 2020 and also runs a separate marketing agency called Onqor
Company Metrics at Time of Interview
| Metric | Value | Source |
|---|---|---|
| Prediction Model Accuracy (2021) | 97% | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Beta Users on Platform (2021) | 50 | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Total Funding from Private Investors | £150,000 | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Total Cash Burned Since Founding (2021) | £1,480,000 | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Team Size (2021) | 15 | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Engineers (2021) | 7 | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Founder Equity Stake (2021) | More than 95% | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Year Founded | 2020 | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Planned Pricing (Entry) (2021) | £500 per month | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
| Planned Pricing (Upper SaaS Range) (2021) | £5,500 per month | Founder interview, Dec 2021 |
Growth Breakdown
Revenue
Pulse was pre-revenue at the time of the interview. Pricing was set to launch in early 2022, ranging from £500 to £5,500 per month depending on how many campaigns an agency runs at once. Joe Kaul expected around £5,500 to be the average for larger agencies and £500 for smaller ones, and put the hundred or so agencies he expected to sign from day one in the £2,000 to £2,500 bracket. None of it was being paid yet.
Customers
50 users had been granted access to the platform in beta as of December 2021. These users were testing the platform and providing data to guide the engineering team ahead of the commercial launch.
Team
The team stood at 15 people as of December 2021, comprising a mix of full-time permanent staff and contractors. Seven of those 15 were engineers focused on the machine learning and computer vision stack.
Funding
£150,000 had been raised from strategic private investors. The bulk of the £1,480,000 total burned since founding in June 2020 came from Joe Kaul personally, funded through revenue from his marketing agency Onqor. A further funding round was being considered for early 2022.
Growth Strategy
Agency Connections as a Growth Asset
Joe Kaul ran a separate full-service marketing agency, Onqor, and argued his connections there were an asset to Pulse rather than a distraction, saying the network he had built in the agency space substantially helped Pulse grow. He expected around a hundred agencies to take the platform on from day one once pricing went live, though none was paying at the time of the interview.
Beta Access to Shape the Product
Rather than launching cold, Pulse gave 50 users access to the platform before charging, allowing the team to observe usage patterns and refine the product based on real behaviour before commercial pricing went live.
Competitive Pricing Anchored to Market Benchmarks
Pricing was set by benchmarking against direct competitors rather than by asking prospects what they would pay. Joe Kaul cited products like Talkwalker as reference points and argued Pulse was a substantially better product than its direct competitors.
Strategic Investor Selection for Long-Term Vision
Rather than maximising capital raised, Joe Kaul chose private investors specifically for their strategic value to the long-term vision of the product, accepting only £150,000 in external funding while retaining more than 95% equity.
Machine Learning Accuracy as the Core Differentiator
The team invested heavily in reaching 97% accuracy on the emotional response prediction model, treating that technical milestone as the primary proof point for commercial conversations with agencies and brands.
Best Quotes
“The machine learning is now complete. We're at 97% accuracy on the prediction model.”
“On predicting the outcome of emotional responses to creative content. So when someone is publishing a piece of content, are they gonna feel angry about it? Are they gonna feel sad about it, confused, unhappy? How many people are gonna engage with it? What type of engagement is that likely to be? We can predict that with 97% accuracy now.”
“It varies. So it depends on how many campaigns they're running simultaneously, but it varies from £500 a month in in British pounds all the way up to however much they wanna be paying. But the range for SaaS subscriptions is 500 to 5,500 a month.”
“At the moment, we're pre rev. But as soon as we hit revenue generation, we know that we have a 100 and so agencies that are gonna be taking the platform on from day one.”
“So a 150,000 has come from private investors. The rest has come from me, and the money that I've accrued over the past however long, by running my marketing agency.”
“I definitely feel the pressure. It's a lot of money to chuck into one project for sure. I'm in a fortunate enough position where the agency is doing well.”
“I'd argue the complete opposite, to be honest with you, by virtue of me being quite well connected in the marketing space and in the agency space. It's actually very beneficial for Pulse. So the more involved I am with the agency, more involved I am with the space in general, the better. And the network that I have over there substantially helps the growth of Pulse.”
“None. Again, they have had access to the platform... We have 50 that have access.”
What Happened Next
This interview captured Pulse at a pre-revenue stage in December 2021, just before the company planned to launch commercial pricing in early 2022. At that point it had 50 users on free access and no paying customers, a 15-person team, and £150,000 raised from private investors, with the balance of the £1,480,000 burned since June 2020 coming from Joe Kaul personally. For current revenue, customer, and funding data, visit the live Pulse company profile on GetLatka.
View Pulse’s current profile and metricsFull Transcript
Chapters
- 0:00Introduction and What Pulse Does
- 0:18How the ML Platform Analyses Ad Creatives
- 0:5297% Prediction Accuracy Explained
- 2:09Pricing Model and SaaS Subscription Tiers
- 2:55Pre-Revenue Status and Agency Pipeline
- 3:54Total Burn and Funding Sources
- 5:21Founder Equity and Potential Future Round
- 6:44Team Size and Engineering Headcount
- 7:26The Onqor Agency: 25 Staff and How It Funds Pulse
- 8:39Why He Won't Separate the Agency from Pulse
- 10:30No Paying Customers, 50 on Free Access
- 11:07Famous Five: Books, Tools, and Habits
- 12:23What He Wishes He Knew at 20
Introduction and What Pulse Does
Nathan Latka
00:00Hey, folks. My guest today is Joe Kaul. He's a 25 year old marketing expert owning a marketing agency and an emerging technology in the machine learning AI space called Pulse. Pulse predicts the outcome of creative content before it's published, maximizing return on ad spend for brands and marketing agencies alike. Joe, you ready to take us to the top?
Joe Kaul
00:17>> For sure.
How the ML Platform Analyses Ad Creatives
Nathan Latka
00:18Alright. So I have 10 ad creatives. Who are you publishing them to before I actually launch them on Facebook to see if they're gonna give me a good return?
Joe Kaul
00:25>> So what we're doing is we're taking creatives, uploading them through our ML platform, identifying a number of different key factors through the machine learning in terms of hue, saturation, luminance, object identification, and a number of other key factors in terms of the natural language that's used in the written context of text formatting to identify based on petabytes of historical data how people have reacted previously, cross correlate that against how they're likely to react to that piece
97% Prediction Accuracy Explained
Joe Kaul
00:52>> of content in the future. The machine learning is now complete. We're at 97% accuracy on the prediction model.
Nathan Latka
00:59Mhmm. 90 97 accuracy on what? What are you trying to predict?
Joe Kaul
01:04>> On predicting the outcome of emotional responses to creative content. So when someone is publishing a piece of content, are they gonna feel angry about it? Are they gonna feel sad about it, confused, Unhappy? How many people are gonna engage with it? What type of engagement is that likely to be? We can predict that with 97% accuracy now.
Nathan Latka
01:22How do you know though? I mean, I scroll a lot of Facebook ads, you know, in in the course of a day that I never interact with, and maybe one makes me angry, but I give no signal to Facebook that I'm angry. I just keep scrolling. How are you able to capture that?
Joe Kaul
01:32>> Yeah. Sure. So that's based on a number of other engagement statistics in terms of watch time, in terms of frequency of watch, in terms of frequency of communication around the piece. But fundamentally, we leverage available public data to identify trends of how people have reacted to similar pieces of content. So while you might not react, other people will react in a similar way and possibly more forthcoming with that information. That subsequently gives us the dataset to
01:59>> identify how people are likely to react. Similar process and identification process to natural language processing, but it's kind of NLP on steroids.
Pricing Model and SaaS Subscription Tiers
Nathan Latka
02:09Mhmm. And and so I understand why brands or agencies wanna pay you for this, but give me a sense of what you like, how you price. What are they paying on average per month to use this tech?
Joe Kaul
02:18>> Yeah. It varies. So it depends on how many campaigns they're running simultaneously, but it varies from £500 a month in in British pounds all the way up to however much they wanna be paying. But the range for SaaS subscriptions is 500 to 5,500 a month.
Nathan Latka
02:33What's like your sweet spot, though? Know it's sort of weird to force you on average, was $607,100 bucks a month a good average? Around
Joe Kaul
02:40>> about 5,500 is probably gonna be the average for the majority of significant sized agencies. If they're smaller sized agencies, they're gonna be going for the £500 a month package.
Nathan Latka
02:49Know. But the real question I'm asking is what kind of agencies are using you. Right? So I'm I'm asking what the mix is effectively by asking what the average is.
Pre-Revenue Status and Agency Pipeline
Joe Kaul
02:55>> Sure. At the moment, we're pre rev. But as soon as we hit revenue generation, we know that we have a 100 and so agencies that are gonna be taking the platform on from day one. And of those, they're sort of roughly falling into the 2,000, 2,500 bracket.
Nathan Latka
03:09And so how are you learning that? Are you sending a PDF with like made up prices to see how people respond and you've had a good response to a $5,000 price point for large agencies?
Joe Kaul
03:18>> So it's based on a number of things. We've not priced it based on what they would want. We priced it based on what we know we can achieve and based on what we know our direct competitors are using. And we're building a technology that's subsequently substantially better than our direct competitors. So we know quite confidently that the agencies that are going to be deploying this sort of solution are gonna be quite satisfied on the price point
03:43>> side of things. Majority of entry point for similar products like Talkwalker, for example, people are paying $6 a year for a similar product.
Nathan Latka
03:50When did you launch the business? What year?
Total Burn and Funding Sources
Joe Kaul
03:54>> Middle of last year, June 2020. We've been burning through cash quite fast since then.
Nathan Latka
03:59How much are you burning?
Joe Kaul
04:01>> We've done 1,480,000 pounds so far.
Nathan Latka
04:05Okay. And and what why is it so expensive to build this?
Joe Kaul
04:09>> Lots of machine learning, lots of computer vision. Predominantly, the the bulk of spend has gone into that. The tech stack that we have behind this has meant that we've had to deploy, some quantum computation elements as well, and a variety of other facets to the product in the back end to handle these vast quantities of data, that that we have.
Nathan Latka
04:30Where'd you get 1,700,000, 1,800,000 to burn through?
Joe Kaul
04:34>> So a 150,000 has come from private investors. The rest has come from me, and the money that I've accrued over the past however long, by running my marketing agency.
Nathan Latka
04:44Oh, very cool. Okay. So you've had significant success then in the marketing agency to be able put a million, 2,000,000 of your own money into the business?
Joe Kaul
04:50>> Been okay. Been okay.
Nathan Latka
04:52Yeah. No. This is great. Okay. Cool. I love a story like this. So so how do you decide? Do you have partners in the agency? No. Okay. Got it. So it's your own I see. I see. And how do you make money at the agency? Is it people pay to spend a $100 a month for them and you take 10%?
Joe Kaul
05:08>> Basically that. Yeah. It depends on what model we're working on. So you've got the paid ad model, but then it's a full service agency. So we do video production, animation photography, creative design branding, the whole the whole suite in one place.
Founder Equity and Potential Future Round
Nathan Latka
05:21Mhmm. And and why let other people take equity and put in a 150 k? Why not just put in another 150 k yourself and keep a 100% control?
Joe Kaul
05:28>> Strategic. So I'm not gonna say who the investors are, but there are a couple of private investors that we've taken on board who are fundamentally going to help us long term with our our long term vision and plan for what the product can do.
Nathan Latka
05:41But fair to say you still own more than 95% of the business?
Joe Kaul
05:45>> Yes. At present.
Nathan Latka
05:46Close. Close. Oh, okay. You said at present. Are are you raising now? Are you about to announce around?
Joe Kaul
05:51>> We may be announcing around at the start of next year. You know, additional capital is always useful, particularly when you're deploying a product like this. It's very complex, requires a lot of funding behind it. Yes, we may be launching another round, but over and above that, we have, you know, option pools and a variety of other facets that are gonna decrease my my equity holding.
Nathan Latka
06:12Mhmm. Don't doesn't your ability to avoid dilution drastically decrease the second you go from $0 in revenue to one? And if so, wouldn't you wanna do that before going out and raising another round?
Joe Kaul
06:23>> Yeah. So that's that's absolutely the case. So by the time this podcast goes live, I'm assuming it's gonna be January 22 anyway. So, you know, from the point at which we launch the product early next year, you know, we're definitely gonna have a few months of of live phase before we actually implement a new round.
Team Size and Engineering Headcount
Nathan Latka
06:44I see. I see. What's the team look like today? How many people?
Joe Kaul
06:48>> 15. A range of full time perm and contractors, basically perm as well.
Nathan Latka
06:54Mhmm. Okay. So 15 and how many engineers?
Joe Kaul
06:58>> Seven. Seven engineers.
Nathan Latka
07:00Seven engineers. And are you all in? Like, if you lose this million bucks you personally put into the business, are you screwed? Like, do you feel the pressure?
Joe Kaul
07:08>> I definitely feel the pressure. It's a lot of money to chuck into one project for sure. I'm in a fortunate enough position where the agency is doing well. We have a number of really exciting things happening on that front as well, which will help Pulse subsequently next year. Am I screwed? Hopefully not. Would I, would I prefer it to work? Absolutely.
The Onqor Agency: 25 Staff and How It Funds Pulse
Nathan Latka
07:26Talk to me about the agency. How young were you when you launched that?
Joe Kaul
07:30>> So I've been in the space since I was 16. I set up my first agency with a business partner at that point, ran that for three years, wasn't happy with the direction it was going, shut it down. So from the age of 19 through to today, we've been running Onqor.
Nathan Latka
07:44Interesting. Okay. So the agency is called Onqor?
Joe Kaul
07:47>> Yeah.
Nathan Latka
07:48Very cool.
Joe Kaul
07:49>> O n q o r.
Nathan Latka
07:50And and how many folks are full time there?
Joe Kaul
07:53>> 25 at the moment, but scaling very, very, very rapidly next year.
Nathan Latka
07:58Interesting. Okay. So 25 full time full time there. And best year in terms of revenue at the agency was about how much?
Joe Kaul
08:07>> I am not gonna disclose that at this moment because there's something quite significant happening over there, but I I will gladly share it with you at a later date.
Nathan Latka
08:16More more can you share a range? More or less than a million revenue?
Joe Kaul
08:19>> More. Yeah. I was gonna say, I think it'll be very fairly easily more than a million.
Nathan Latka
08:24Would you sell the agency?
Joe Kaul
08:26>> I mean, would people I would imagine people would require you to
Nathan Latka
08:30be less connected to the agency if you're gonna about to raise a big round in the SaaS company, and one way to solve that problem might be to just sell the agency?
Why He Won't Separate the Agency from Pulse
Joe Kaul
08:39>> I'd argue the complete opposite, to be honest with you, by virtue of me being quite well connected in the marketing space and in the agency space. It's actually very beneficial for Pulse. So the more involved I am with the agency, more involved I am with the space in general, the better. And the network that I have over there substantially helps the growth of Pulse.
Nathan Latka
09:00So I'm gonna role play. I'm a very strategic person that you wanna bring into your company, and I'm looking at leading your next round. Hey, Joe. You know what? That rationale makes perfect sense to me. You're exactly right. So I need you to bundle the agency with pulse. And if I'm writing you a check, I wanna have a equity stake in both of them.
Joe Kaul
09:14>> Again, something significant happening over at the agency side, which will ultimately adjust the way in which I can discuss that. I can't say any more than that.
Nathan Latka
09:24The reason I bring this up, this is a trend that, mean, I look, I interview thousands of founders, but I see this happening so frequently where people are, they're brilliant. They build distribution first, which is what I would argue an agency is, right? It's distribution or community first, and then you build a SaaS tool. And then you have to decide, do shut the community down and go on on the SaaS, Or do you let them work
09:41together? Because you would argue that any customer that your agency touches that also uses Pulse has a higher NDR on Pulse because the agency helped them get set up on Pulse. And managing this story with investors is very tricky because like you wanna keep your media agency separate because that can be kingmaker for the rest of your life. You built it at 19, right? Who knows what will happen with Pulse, but then everyone else is gonna
10:02want you to build it in together or assign a master licensing agreement or a master referral agreement or something like that.
Joe Kaul
10:07>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, again, there are opportunities for
10:14>> that to make more logical sense. Again, I can't say much. Right this very second, there's something very significant happening in January that's preventing me from saying any more about strategically why I'm doing what I'm doing and how I'm doing it, but there is a very good method behind it and there is method to the methods.
No Paying Customers, 50 on Free Access
Nathan Latka
10:30Yep. Okay. Interesting. Talk to me a little bit about So you have 15 people, seven full time. How many folks? How many customers do you have using Pulse but not paying it, but they're ready to start paying?
Joe Kaul
10:42>> None. Again, they have had access to the platform. We have been testing the platform in time be able to access. We have 50 that have access.
Nathan Latka
10:51Oh. Oh, wow.
Joe Kaul
10:52>> Okay. Yeah.
Nathan Latka
10:53That's great. So you can watch how they use it, learn a little bit, guide your engineering team, etcetera.
Joe Kaul
10:58>> Yeah. Exactly.
Nathan Latka
10:59Very cool. Alright. Anything else you wanna talk about before we wrap up with the famous five?
Joe Kaul
11:04>> I'm good. You tell me if you need anything else.
Famous Five: Books, Tools, and Habits
Nathan Latka
11:07No. Just wanna make sure I don't wanna I don't wanna miss anything. Alright. So let's do that. Number one, what's your favorite business book?
Joe Kaul
11:13>> Favorite business book. Influence Psychology of Persuasion. Not technically a business book, but very applicable to what we do.
11:19>> Influence psychology of persuasion?
Nathan Latka
11:21Yeah. Cool. Number two, is there a CEO you're following or studying?
Joe Kaul
11:26>> There is a bit of a rogue one. It's a guy called Joe Binder. He's the CEO of a personal branding agency in The UK, doing an amazing job, support some of the biggest names in the CEO space in The UK. Really cool guy.
Nathan Latka
11:39Number three, what's your favorite online tool for building pulse?
Joe Kaul
11:43>> Oh, so the tool the question I've got is favorite tool for growing the business. I put people. So technically, an online tool. But over and above that, I think, we use Life Plan, which is great for financial planning. Excellent tool from an online perspective for us.
11:59>> Life Plan?
Nathan Latka
12:00Yep. Okay. Number four, how many hours of sleep do you get every night?
Joe Kaul
12:06>> Four to six during the week, four to ten during the weekends depending on what's going on.
Nathan Latka
12:11End situation, married, single, kids?
Joe Kaul
12:14>> In a relationship, not married, not single. No kids, but two dogs.
Nathan Latka
12:18And, Joe, how old are you?
Joe Kaul
12:20>> 25.
12:21>> 25. Last question.
What He Wishes He Knew at 20
Nathan Latka
12:23Something you wish you knew five years ago when you were 20.
Joe Kaul
12:30>> Relaxing is not the end of the world. It's probably the most important thing that you can do for yourself and for your mental position to actually progress forward.
Nathan Latka
12:39Guys, he launched a media agency at 19, did over $1,000,000 in revenue last year, over 20 people scaling quickly and used the learnings at that agency to go, you know what? We need to build something and systematize something here. Launched pulsetech. He's put over a million bucks of his own capital into this SaaS platform. They've got over 50 people using it today, about to launch pricing, call it in January, at around, call it anywhere from 500
12:59to $5,000 a month sorts of contracts. The whole idea of pulsetech is for you to be able to test and predict which ad creatives and combinations will perform before wasting money putting those things live. So return on ad spend should go up if you use Pulse. We will see what happens. Joe, thanks for taking us to the top.
Joe Kaul
13:14>> Thanks very much, Nathan. Speak to you soon.
Nathan Latka
13:18One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM Central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on three hungry buyers. They try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday one
13:43p. M. Central. Additionally, remember these recorded Founder interviews go live. We release them here on YouTube every day at two p. M. Central. To make sure you don't miss any of that, make sure you click the subscribe button below here on YouTube, the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live. I wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the SaaS world, whether it's
14:04an acquisition, a big fundraise, a big sale, a big profitability statement or something else. I don't want you to miss it. Additionally, if you want to take this conversation deeper and further, we have by far the largest private Slack community for B2B SaaS founders. You want to get in there. We've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing. You can go in there and quickly search and see what
14:25people are saying. Sign up for that at nathanlatka.com/slack. In the meantime, I'm hanging out with you here on YouTube. I'll be in the comments for the next thirty minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode and if you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up. We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, I do it so that we can all learn. We have to
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