How Salesprocess CEO Nick Kozmin grew to $11.1M revenue and 1.2K customers in 2023.

hello everyone my guest today is darren ong he's a passion executive director and co-investor for high growth sas and private equity and the private debt sort of ecosystems he invested in food fintech and sales process dot io early on darren you ready to take the top yep okay so so tell us about sales process dot io what does the company do and why did you invest sure so uh sales process is basically in three uh keywords is growth consulting programs so uh what we do is we've actually had about 1200 plus client successes in really clearing the product market fit the client mindset as well to grow their business at the maximum like per day you know tweakings for sales and marketing and legion outbound prospecting and so far so the consulting program yeah grows their business der sorry let's try and be specific here so you've worked with a bunch of different sas companies time hero is one of them explain to me what you guys did for time hero so so time hero uh we actually looked at the initial um product and platform and what it was is we found that the team were still not you know getting the right product market fit so the ideal customer profile that they had was really you know targeting a certain sector of of niche and that's where you know the consulting helped them to identify niche and made even pricing adjustments to their packages that you know resonated with the actual sector that they were very uh compelling for and you know that really ramped up the sale sales and that you know spearheaded them also going for our program where it's a remote sales install where we actually do hiring vsls and video sales letters to you know high candidates to become their remote sales so just be clear for time here time hero paid you to do pricing work product market fit work and they also hired you to basically for you to hire sales people on your payroll to sell time heroes product is that accurate not really uh the remote sales is going to be uh time heroes sales uh remote you know in terms of their team but uh you know everything they do we we do a coaching as a service so you know ramping the the sales wrap up you know through the whole year-long execution program so what does it cost typically what's the customer paying you per month per year so our gold packages come at 15 80 15 800 per year and it for platinum it's at 21 800 per year and uh for our diamond package which where it's one on one with nick cosman it's at 55 000 u.s per year and who is nick cosman next uh basically a dot-to-dog you know uh in fact he started off you know with the sales evolution that has you know come to at this stage where he started dollar dollar sales and he actually scientifically worked out the foundational copyright um and he patented it trademarked it then you know that uh had a slew of you know other um scientific uh methodologies like product market fit yeah just to be clear nick is not a scientist when you use scientific that's you kind of putting marketing driven he's not a scientist but he he's a great copywriter and he's an experience he's engineering he's an engineering graduate yeah and he built a system for his process yeah how did you find him what year did you meet um so about three years ago i was like really looking at how to you know uh spruce up my own uh sas uh software what was the software called uh so it was called uh in fact was the first uh version of fluid fintech it was called good mobile g-i-r-t grit mobile okay so you met him you paid him in 2017 to do work for you yeah yeah and and it really you know from 800 000 u.s it just ramped up for the whole year up to 5 million u.s so what happened to grit mobile what was it today now it's uh it's fluid fintech so good mobile is now you know renamed rebranded to fluid fintech and what's it do so uh we have distributed ledger technology fintech uh it also covers uh even payment remittance solutions so um the whole commute of uh you know remittance uh we actually do for businesses credit unions financial institutions it's been doing really well uh so now about 300 000 users on the platform so is it b2c or b to b a b to c i got it so you have 300 000 consumers you have 300 000 consumers using you how does influence fintech make money so we it's uh based on the transactions that uh you know the 300 000 uh we have some that are very basic and then obviously intermediate and then advanced transactions so they pay you know different sort of transaction fees for different programs that we have for fluid fintech so when you say grit mobile hit 5 million in revenue back in 2017 that means you processed 5 million in transactions through your platform yeah okay and you were taking about what percent one or two percent uh actually we had at seven percent okay got it so you're taking seven percent got and so obviously nick comes in he does work in 2017 2018 it's now fluid fintech today and obviously so we can understand the impact of nick's work help us understand in 2020 or in 2019 how much transaction volume went through fluid fintech so it's now uh looking at touching 18 million are you guys still taking seven percent uh at the moment it's more like you know prorated sort of about six percent okay why do you look like you're thinking deeply about something was that a confusing question it was no it was like you know 6.3 but it's it's going to it's six six percent okay so 18 million flowing through the platform last year and you taking about 6.3 percent means on a gross revenue basis the company did about 1.1 million in gross revenue before expenses is that accurate yep and are you still involved with the company yeah yeah i'm a director i'm actually expanding uh for the asia pacific and middle east yep interesting okay got it so so what would you say nick helped you do to grow from 5 million in total transaction volume in 2017 to 18 million in 2019 yeah okay great uh question so in terms of the website the landing page the branding um what you know the foundational copyright for our solutions for fluid fintech was harnessed and re-emphasized to you know the target audience which were the b2c users so that was the first second was you know our packaging in terms of the services you know basic intermediate advanced then also use cases case studies a lot of you know work went into driving the outbound prospecting ad traffic uh so darren sorry the website the website gets like no traffic i mean i'm in the reports right now for ahrefs and semrush you don't even register on alexa traffic rank as a top site not even in the hundreds of millions there's there's only two sites linking into the site there's very little design i don't even see pricing plans that you just described why don't i see any of that are you are you at f-l-u-i-d-f-i-n-t-e-c dot com yeah sometimes it's yeah okay i mean i'm looking at the reports right now there's no traffic i mean so when you say he drives you traffic via ads and built your inbound engine well there's nothing here to show for it there's no traffic yeah so so we we actually have 23 credit unions if you if you have a look at the copper website we market through these uh you know credit union so they are like mini banks so you know the ad traffic is coming from them so the the users as well are coming from these 23 credit unions so this is bar credit union limited tubercarian district credit limited uh st jar lofts credit union etc exactly okay interesting so back to nick you decided to invest in sales process how much did you invest in why'd you do it so i've invested uh almost about 30 000 usd altogether um and you know just just for a mini uh you know shareholding uh in in the you know their common chairs so so how much equity do you own one point 1.2 percent okay got it and how did you i mean obviously you know you have to value the company when you make a thirty thousand dollar investment you're valuing the company you know what is that somewhere around yeah two point eight million your va is the value right if you own one point something percent for 30k yeah yeah so that was back then right now it's you know really spruced up it's touching maybe about 800 000 us a month mrr so you know basically you know it's spruced up quite what was it quite a lot what was it doing back in 2017. what was it doing back in 2017 2017 was uh uh really was only doing about 150 000 uh mrr so yeah it's been the last few years has been you know fantastic because of uh the power of remote selling and kovit has even made remote selling a must now for clients so what was total revenue in 2019 2019 total ar total revenue total revenue uh touched about not touch total revenue you're fine you're filing a tax return you put this number yeah 16 million one six million yep and what do you guys think it'll do in 2020 uh going by the 800 000 it's gonna touch easily easily about 20 20 okay you said in 2019 it was doing 800 000 a month in revenue on average yeah yeah so it's it's already uh passed a million uh in terms of month recurring monthly recurring revenue um the last few months so the last few months has been you know probably month on month been growing about i'd say 15 how did you do 16 million in total revenue in 2019 if the average monthly recurring revenue is 800 000 per month that would be about a 9.6 million dollars in revenue not 16 million where'd the extra 6 million 7 million come from yeah okay so so we have some uh major consulting programs as well that we hit the bigger clients which are you know in the billions i mean the clients that are doing you know sales in the billion so that one is uh also computed into you know on the bigger programs uh so got it that one's kind of yeah to today let's just take a flash point in time what a customer's pound average per month to use the platform i know you have three plans but on average was customer pay per month average is about 21 000 per month uh no uh per year per year so sorry two thousand dollars per month something like that and how many are paying today monthly they are paying uh 1200. you have 1200 customers today actively paying you yes okay just so just be clear over the next 30 days there's gonna be 1200 individual people paying you on average two thousand dollars yes that should be okay that's 2.4 million dollars a month you're requiring revenue you just told me you just passed a million in mrr these numbers are off by factors of 2 and 3x darren what's going on yeah so i mean it might be that some of the 1200 uh you know already paid up yeah you know in full so yeah maybe maybe you know when we look at the monthly recurring revenue it's probably a breakup of half of it so half half of it are paying on a monthly some some are paying you know slightly different programs so you know the remote selling program is a monthly program so the other programs i think they are you know different programs that really you know come from a tree installed base and and some are on monthly monthly how many people are on the team now it's 59 59 people and what's sort of the split how many how many are engineers uh we've got five engineers now okay and and how many sales people sales if you just uh look at salary uh it's seven okay then the rest are all uh commission only how many of the uh are full-time team members not not including commission only people so seven five twelve twelve uh twelve are full time and then you've got like 40 essentially contractors that are commissioned only okay yeah you pay them nothing if they don't drive you sale yeah what commission do you pay if someone brings you two thousand dollar a month customer what do you pay them in commission 25 um for one left for one month or for the full 21 000 annual contract uh for the full uh tcv you know 21 000 contract got it interesting if they if they double team uh then usually the there's usually a discovery and there's a demonstration so if they double team for it it's uh the discovery is 10 and then the uh closing the deal is 15 so got it it's still about 25 and how long how long do these customers typically keep paying you per month i or do they pay and then sort of stop after a year yeah so that's what i was trying to get at some some uh you know remote sales is a monthly program so some are you know broken down into three um like payments um and some you know uh you know go on a monthly uh spread so they typically you know it's a whole year uh the clients are very you know uh sticky so we've got you know we had a renewal even you know uh as as we speak this month uh all all was pretty good for renewals uh for this month what is that who's question you have 12 how many what's your churn annually a churn um the churn is about 17 okay got it so if you sign up 100 customers exactly 12 months ago uh about uh you know call it 83 of them would renew yeah got it uh what's the game plan do you guys plan to sell the company or keep driving growth or what i mean this is really a consulting business you're not going to get a sas multiple yeah yeah so um basically i think uh uh nick's really you know leading uh he he doesn't he wants to just you know have a lot of profit optimization uh before profitable is it profitable today definitely yeah okay do you get do you get do you get monthly payouts uh yeah yeah how much money what was your monthly payout last month uh that was about seven nine in u.s dollar seven thousand nine hundred and how did he get to that number so we've we've got valuation we've got you know uh in fact you know the irr and the how how he's um like doing the financial statements and so forth so so he takes it from you know the financial statements that uh come in you know it's quarterly so quality so well i mean maybe a better question is last month what was profit how much hit the bottom line is cash flow i think uh for each um engagement at say at 21 800 the profit looks at well can we just look at the whole business so just all last month september of 2020 what was total profit in september of 2020 september in percentage it would have been around 40 percent what is it in a flat number because we because we we pay the commissions right so that's about you know it prorates to 20 percent or what i understand what's the flat number though percentages are hard 40 of a dollar is 40 cents that's not that impressive even though if it's profit yeah like 20 25 uh is the commission's then maybe another 35 is the implementation team you know we've got to actually have the five engineers working and stuff and then you know another 35 uh just uh darren i understand you have 40 profit margin what i'm asking is what was the number are we talking a million in profit 500 000 a profit a hundred thousand in profit instead this month september 2020 you know like the two or nine you know like the figures just uh upset for 40 of you know the 18 million uh or whatever that you know i mentioned earlier the percentage of the terrible this is this this month just happened sorry i don't understand why you're talking about percentages on projections if you just look at september you're about to close out september what will total profit be in september it's not being computed yet that's that's what i'm trying to do okay what was it what was it what was it in august what was it the month prior then the last month that you completed what was profit enough this would have touched about a million one politics give or take about 440 000 okay and why do you guys decide to pay that out instead of reinvesting it back into the business how do you make those decisions uh yeah so so nick actually has uh you know a lot of mastermind events now so he's he's reinvesting on on a lot more on these strategies for the premium the diamond package where you know he's going to actually have a lot more tracks in terms of the mastermind events seminars and so on so these are more on the uh you know uh his diamond program uh that he he meant uh sort of uh gives a a very harnessed look in terms of you know uh and so on he if you know the background he he was also you know previously uh mentored by all the the greats you know like kylo tai lopez and and so on got it i think people will make their own judgment yeah sure sure those are very different business models than building a true sas business i think people in terms of that space the folks that are respected the most in terms of building a true sas business from that space are folks like russell brunson which click funnels is 97 a month or 2.97 a year or a month it's a clear sas product not selling a one-time event or consulting sort of on the side it's truly a true sas product there is no true sas technology products here correct it really is all consulting consulting yeah yeah very good very good still impressive right great consulting business let's wrap up here with the famous five number one favorite business book that be guerrilla marketing number two is their ceo you're following or studying jeff bezos number three what's your favorite online tool for building the company close number four how many minutes of sleep are you getting every night six hours right yep situation married single kiddos uh kiddo already uh trio married very cool and how old are you i am 50 this year 50 congrats last question what's something you wish you knew when you were 20. i think uh amazon and google shares guys yeah guys very good you just met darren today he's an investor in sales process.io which is a consulting company albeit doing fairly well twelve hundred customers doing about a million dollars per month in revenue highly profitable uh darren put in thirty thousand dollars back in 2017 after he hired nick who runs sales process data to run a project for what's now called fluid finance that company did so well he said i got to invest in this guy he did the company is now growing they've got 12 people full-time on the team about 40 consultants who are commission only sales people five engineers that look to scale and continue to scale the company darren thank you for taking us to the top yep cheers nathan one more thing before you go we have a brand new show every thursday at 1 pm central it's called shark tank for sass we call it deal or bust one founder comes on three hungry buyers they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards their expenses their revenue arpu cac ltv you name it they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live it is fun to watch every thursday 1pm central additionally remember these recorded founder interviews go live we release them here on youtube every day at 2 p.m central to make sure you don't miss any of that make sure you click the subscribe button below here on youtube the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live i wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the sas world whether it's an acquisition a big fundraise a big sale a big profitability statement or something else i don't want you to miss it additionally if you want to take this conversation deeper and further we have by far the largest private slack community for b2b sas founders you want to get in there we've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing you can go in there and quickly search and see what people are saying sign up for that at nathanalakka.com forward slash slack in the meantime i'm hanging out with you here on youtube i'll be in the comments for the next 30 minutes feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode if you enjoyed it click the thumbs up we get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive i am on these shows but i do it so that we can all learn we have to counter those people we got to push them away click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that i appreciate your guys support all right i'll be in the comments see ya

hello everyone my guest today is nick kausman he is uh he has got a bsc in engineering physics he's the founder of sales process dot io it grew from zero to a 1.8 million dollar run rate uh over the past several years it's bootstrapped one commission based employee we're going to dive into it today he's helping 250 sas and high ticket service companies scale up nick are you ready to take us to the top let's do it all right man so crowded space marketing tech sales tech how are you positioning this how's it different so we focused on helping sas companies grow profitably we help them install what's called video sales letter funnels that uh basically it's the vsl video sales funnel plus paid traffic to a demo so we're like uh we're helping companies just pump uh fill their calendar with demos and um yeah our service and our product shows them how to do that and uh achieve profitable growth so there's tons of marketing firms out there that show people how to do ads show help show people how to do outbound prospecting but not too many of these folks understand that they need to make it profitable so you know like this is your world if you're generating a demo at like 150 dollars per demo on facebook or using linkedin ads let's say your show up rate is 70 the close rate is 50 or 30 you uh you want to make the math make sense right so if you're spending a thousand dollars to get a client you want your groceries to be over a thousand dollars in that first year you want that payback period to be pretty sure so you guys can grow so that they can so they can grow profitably so we focus on that so essentially we build machines where you can spend one dollar for sas companies we spend one dollar you should make at least three dollars back in like 30 days and we had to eat our own dog food so we got to 1.8 million in seven months that's where you're at today 1.8 yeah well 2.2 in uh in revenue but since we're bootstrapped i just look at cash collected we're at like 1.8 so let me ask it differently last month how much did you do in revenue uh 180 okay 180 got it and what's that up from a year ago uh that was it's up we were doing like 30 last year okay got it so about 30 grand in december 2017 now at 180 december 2018 you're saying you do all that by eating your own dog food you do a lot of demos every day oh yeah buddy how many you want you want me to share my screen right now no no that won't come through it won't come through on the show uh yeah like i have a sales rep i got joseph in arkansas i'm in toronto i do five to six demos a day and then joseph's doing five to eight demos a day okay what's a team so just two of you today uh so there's to get we got to 1.8 with just me and joseph um but then i brought on two other sales reps that are ramping up right now they're not really selling they're just training right now okay are they like full-time employees or commission only commission only everyone's commission only okay so just you really full-time yeah and joseph's full-time but he's commission only okay two okay got it got it very good okay so two full-time um and breakdown so so like what's the average customer pay you per month you have a lot of sas companies using you yeah so our contract values anywhere from six grand to 15 000 a year okay a year and is that just is it is it really variant on how many leads or how many demos you're setting up for them so we teach them it's an e-learning it's like a consulting e-learning package right so the 15 grand it's more hands-on where we actually help them write their copy and their ads like that's that's really what they're they're paying for like we just write banger ads that cut through facebook and youtube um so that's what our 15 000 clients get and then our six grand package is basically the the um the playbook on how to build these video sales letters so we give them the sales scripts the bsl scripts the ad scripts the templates how to set the crm um you know how to hire folks how to do a demo how to cl how to one call close most people have no idea how to do that yeah so it's just to be clear is so is this like a is this like an agency on steroids nick or is this truly a sas company it's not an agency it's it's a it's a like info product okay got it yeah yeah but so but it's not i mean you have to hustle every month and close new deals every month to build stackable recurring revenue correct yeah well the contract is per year so it's a yearly uh contract and we have a group we have a community so they pay to be part of the community okay so let me do a specific example here i'm going to pick one of these logos you have off your site so a company like copilot or gather is power advisor stream is paying you what you're saying is co-pilot's gonna say you know nick we need we have two sdrs they're they're putting into aes right now we want to test if your system makes our sdrs more effective for getting demos for these aes we want to sign up for you to do you know line us up 200 demos over the next year and you're going to say okay that's 15 grand yeah well we'll be we'll look at it depends on the price point in the market that they're in right we usually with if they're just doing outbound if they're selling something over like 50 grand they're looking at five to 20 demos a month if they're a little bit lower price point when they're selling like smbs like we can get like 120 demos a month it just depends on the on the uh on who they're going after how many customers are you serving today 280 280 okay and when did you launch company what year so i've been i started i started seven years ago but i was i was kind of like uh i would go in i can only help two customers at a time so i'd go in for half a year and i was i'd roll up my sleeves and do all the work so i'd build the funnel i'd get on the phone i'd build the sales team i'd run their ads and we would do it was a hundred thousand dollar fee plus 15 of the lift so i would go in and i could only do two those a year so then we we did we did these deals everyone started asking me sorry so that was back in 2011 yeah 2012 2012 yeah and so like where were you in life at that point was this like college or out of college or quit corporate uh so i grew up so when i was in school i uh i studied engineering i paid i was in 50 000 worth of debt i had to pay pay off my student loans so i got a job selling door-to-door for a company called canadian property stars became the top sales person there and then paid off all my loans when i graduated i started a business called midnight detailing where we took the door-to-door marketing and sales method applied it to uh washing rich people's cars in toronto and uh that was an awesome business it ran seasonally um we took that from zero to three thousand customers in two years then we sold it to a company called go wrench auto because we couldn't i couldn't convince people to wash cars in the wintertime um so i sold it that's because that's the wrong thing to convince them over in the winter time you just need to put more salt on the roads yeah exactly right that's that's how you get more car washes yeah so after go wrench i got into helping sas companies and then we started i started doing like the done-for-you work and then we transitioned uh last year to this uh this accelerator model which is you're basically i mean i see you're definitely kind of angling towards hey if you're in 500 startups if you're nyc if you're in tech stars like use us we'll help you drive sales and you're definitely positioning on your sales page to that audience is that accurate yeah that's right yeah um what i want to understand though right is how much of this is i mean you're an engineer so you think about systems you hustled your ass off you know just doing two clients a year just do whatever you had to do to get that revenue to get your debt paid off but i'm curious like usually when someone like you has this kind of success in an agency model over time they get lazier and that's a good thing because they build systems to do stuff they had to do in the past what i'm trying to figure out is have you actually built code that runs this system or have you just essentially hired a few commissioned folks and they're eating their own dog food and they're actually driving this thing like which would be more of an agency model not a sas model so what we did was over i took everything that i was doing that was getting because i my case studies were pretty awesome like zero to a million in a year right from a standing start and i figured out how to do it and then i put i wrote the process and so that's what we sell to our customers now like we have all the documents we have all the templates oh i see we have all the flows we give them the keys to the car and they go and drive it okay got it so you have essentially a templated system but if that you know if if time hero signs up for you and they're they're targeting 100 month smb accounts versus i'm going to make this up catapult signs with you and they're trying to sign up hundred thousand dollars tv accounts like you have to modify that template a bit before you hand that like binder of training to their sales team is that accurate yep that's right okay is that right though that's the deliverable yeah exactly so like for instance like time hero is going to be running paid traffic to a free trial funnel right and then they'll stick a demo in there if for people that want to do multi license like they wouldn't want to sign up like for like 10. whereas some of someone who's doing a 50 000 100 000 enterprise deal they're going to use a video sales letter to book meetings against the calendar they're not going to be it's no free trial for 100 grand right they're going to use the same video sales letter structure but they're going to funnel it to uh the end point is going to be a meeting instead of a trial yeah so let me ask you a question um the the reason sas is so popular is it's just a more effective atm right if you put a dollar if you get if you drive a new dollar of mrr and a sas company you know valuation wise for the founder if you own a hundred percent that's essentially worth annualized so a dollar times 12 is 12 bucks and if you have healthy economics like churn ltv cac payback all that jazz you can get maybe a five to a 10x multiple let's be conservative and say five times at 12 dollars that's sixty dollars for a dollar of mrr you've driven right that that is really effective your model which i mean right now it's a really effective training program but you're you're essentially helping these atms run more effectively but i don't think you actually have equity in those atms how do you move from doing what you're doing now to actually getting into the value that you're creating for these pure play sas companies yeah it's a good question and so our long-term goal and we started doing this already so our customers out of 280 there's a few superstars in there and we have like cash and you know like our business does well so we're able to invest into those deals at good terms because we can help them more like if we give them money then we can help them more than just with the money because we can help them with their ads and scale it who have you invested in one or two of the companies so far uh so right now uh seamless ai okay you know that no i don't okay yeah they're doing really well um which for which do they go through an accelerator seamless is out of uh ohio they didn't go through an accelerator now yeah so you will you will essentially lead the angel round or you'll go on the back of like a vc round i won't lead anything i'll just jump in okay but okay so how did you give seamless dot ai money was it like here's 20 grand for five percent of the company well they had a convertible note right and they like our thesis is like we can get them to that point of inflection where if they solve lead generation and they solve and they solve uh the predictable sales method all it is is a function of cash and time to get to a certain point right so uh we get uh basically we want to get in at that point and then um so you're investing in the convertible note yeah okay which somebody else kind of set the terms for yeah i see what you're saying okay cool um my question still goes back to you i mean what you're doing is you have you're an engineering i mean the the pedigree is like perfect you're an engineer uh you know how to talk you can communicate you've got great you're building a team like you're generating your own revenue but but like if you're optimizing just to like get filthy freaking rich you would go build something in in an exciting space and actually apply these things in your own tech company i mean when do you do that it's got to be on your mind yeah well i've worked with so many sas companies right and uh i just looking at return on capital because i have my own capital i was like well how do i get that's all i care about is just growing capital uh and so i came up with a model that's pretty damn effective right now and i'm gonna hit a i'm gonna handle a plateau and i'm gonna have to do something else to keep the growth going yeah all right all right fair enough um let me uh let me go in here so real quick where are you guys all based where's the team you you and uh the the other full-time so i'm in uh toronto canada joseph is in arkansas i have a guy in new york and i have a guy in vegas okay so toronto and kind of remote and then how many of these customers when their year kind of contract expires how many renew i don't know yet we've only been doing it for a year oh god i thought you said you launched this back seven years ago this is my uh that was my like done for you we launched this like uh this group program the training program uh in january of uh this year okay so it's like a membership site yeah yeah okay very good all right let's wrap up here with the famous five number one what's your favorite business book uh four steps to the epiphany by steve blank number two is there a ceo you're following or studying right now uh yeah jeff bezos number three what is your favorite online tool for building the company close eye out [Music] four how many hours of sleep to eat every night i try to get eight what do you get though nick what do you get you broke up there say that again yeah what do you get how many hours eight hours to try to get eight yeah yeah so but so you say you try to get eight is that actually what you're getting or is it way less seven to eight okay fair enough good and what's your situation married single kids uh i have a girlfriend okay not married no no kids running around you don't know about i don't think so all right just messing with you and how and how old are you i'm 27 27 last question what do you wish your 20 year old self knew uh oh pay people for pay pay smart people for help i got a lot of like people give me the wrong information but then i paid somebody a lot of money to show me stuff and it it helped guys pay smart people for help launched kind of just a kind of hustle agency done-for-you pro system back at seven years ago to help people drive more sales and demos he's now kind of codified that today it's still really a training and membership program but he's scaled nicely to 280 customers paying anywhere between six and 15 grand per year dune caught you know 1.8 million bucks over the past call it trailing 12 months so healthy growth uh two people a base between toronto and other remote locations totally bootstrapped which obviously is a great place to be nick thanks for taking us to the top thanks man appreciate it