vFairsrevenue & valuation

hey folks my guest today is muhammad yunus he's the founder and ceo of v fares the leading virtual events hybrid platform in the world he led the growth of the company from two people back in 2016 to 250 plus today in 2021 he's gonna share revenue here in a second muhammad you ready to take it to the top absolutely all right what's revenue today uh so right now we are at a point where we should be hitting close to 40 million dollars in 2021. that's incredible now where were you exactly a year ago where did you finish 2020 uh it was around 30 million how are you how are you doing this when you have competitors like hop in and visible raising gobs of capital you're bootstrapped i believe uh yeah absolutely uh so i think i see in our case uh uh you know as you know with all respect to in and visible within our customer base we we don't hear much about them again we finally deal with the enterprise customers who really care about uh the visual look and feel of how their event should look like they want their events to be memorable so we are a lot more in that uh 3d highly visually appealing version and platform whereas many others are 2d enhanced networking tools and and you know we don't compete with those guys much within the enterprise sector i remember in march when we came on last year i was shocked by your your average acv which backs up the story you just told what is your average acv today is it still like the 14 to 30 000 range uh yeah actually uh i think as of now our average customer is paying us thirty three thousand dollars um so that's what they're paying us now um you know for the past five months and and what so why are they paying so much more you mentioned visual customization are there other things you're sort of upselling against that no one else is doing or they're doing a poor job at sure no i think for us the the the following is the key right so first for our platform looks uh visually appealing is one of the most beautiful platform out there that's one the second thing is our platform is also something that is end-to-end integrated so again when we work with these enterprise customers they care about integrations with their crm providers like salesforce hubspot uh they care about integration with the likes of marketing um you know if it's uh you know if it's a an ats company whether it's you know a couple of others so it's a it's a fully end-to-end integrated system and third and last thing is that see we have been in the market for almost more than five years so we have far more depth in terms of future set versus anyone else when a customer is coming to us uh you know they get uh far more depth in terms of features if they're doing a trade show they will have the ability to showcase their products sell their products if they're doing a job fair they can pull up their jobs rss feed they can you know have candidates apply for jobs and so forth so uh when it comes to their depth of future set we also have that versus a lot of other players out there and how many customers today uh roughly close to uh 1250 plus active paying customers at this point 1 250. that's true well that's up significantly so so you've gone on the show twice back in 2018 you had broken about a 2 million do you remember this back in 2018 2018 you were flirting with like a 1.7 million dollar run rate and then pre-covered so this was uh i guess very early last year i think this is right right you were at about just a three million dollar run rate you almost 10x yeah i remember telling you that number and i was like no i gosh i wish like i really hit that number but yeah i was hoping to hit 3 million then we hit 30 million so that's what happened yeah so so where were you in early 2020 run rate wise do you remember uh it was close to 2.4 to 2.8 million dollars yeah wow so so okay so essentially what happened was you went from 2.5 million in run rate to 22 million and or 20 million in terms of run rate in december of like this past december so almost 10x growth during covid yeah well and so what drove that i mean there's hard covet is obviously important but there's also a lot of hard work there absolutely there are two things right first of all uh i think prior to covert you have to be a very forward-looking organization to try out virtual events so you have to be one of those fortune 500 fortune 2000 companies in order to do something unique now with kobet what has happened is that everyone is you know forced to learn about virtual events to do virtual events and when they went out there trying to look for a platform we were one of the most trusted platform out there so if you go on g2 you know again with all respect to all the other people who have raised tons of money you will see us as number one when it comes to the highest rated platform so no one no one and i say that with a lot of confidence no one can beat us on customer support uh so as much as a software play uh one thing where we just um you know we are better than anyone else out there is you know how how great our customer support is versus anyone else out there that's one then again you know when they were researching uh who's the most uh you know trusted player most you know the player with uh a lot of um great reviews and then again you know player with with a bit of a you know who can help you run event that is highly memorable we came out there at the top right so we were the one who got a lot of that influx of new business we in fact had to turn uh away tons of business you know this this 30 million could have easily been 60 million have i've been not caring about customer support in many cases we let the customers uh just you know we have to apologize to them that you know the kind of support that we aim to provide unfortunately we feel that we may not be the right vendor exactly that week when we got tons of customers here you have 562 reviews on g2 which means you probably get a lot of organic traffic from there maybe some paid as well but the playbook you run to make sure when you impress a customer they actually take the time to go leave a review is an important playbook what does that sound like yeah i know i think see within the events industry what happened is that anytime a customer is coming to any vendor including us i think they they they know that they're going to work for uh weeks if not months for that one day that one day that one day for virtual event has to go just perfectly well and would always go ahead and do their research so they will they want that social proof so they will see g2 they will ask us can you give us social proofs they will ask us for references and then you know once once they are done doing a virtual event with v fairs they know how much how much those reviews have helped them so again just by default they go out there and and post some of those reviews of course we encourage them you know as well that you know if you feel that you whatever you know whether it's good or bad service we would love you to kind of go ahead and share that internally as well externally with the world talk to me about team today how many folks full time uh 250 people and how many are in support uh so in support we would have roughly around 120 plus people wow okay how did you scale that so almost half your team is in support are they all based in the states or how did you scale that team uh so uh so they're based all over the world so you know from us to canada to australia singapore etc but bulk of our support is based out of either pakistan or out of some of the other asian countries again they work uh u.s time zone they work uk european time zones so we we kind of assign them based on where our customer base is this is also just an insane amount of this must take a lot of your time you had 45 people on about on the team about 16 months ago you've hired over 200 people i mean how do you hire 200 people in 18 months you know i think we we have uh we have that brand recognition in most of these countries so again when we were hiring uh we went to this uh you know online university drive we went to the best universities out there in the world and we literally heard any any good candidate that was available at that time what'd you do you reached out to like the deans of the schools and said send them our way or what was the playbook there the the we reach out to the career services team uh so again you know in some of these universities we're already well known some of them are our customers to begin with uh so again they would say that by the way we use v first platform they're hiring go ahead you know and they will recommend sometimes hand-picked candidates and will give it to us smart how many engineers on the team uh roughly around 50 15 5-0 okay and last time we spoke you were just scaling up your your sales team you had two quota carrying reps right before covet hit and you had them on an annual quota of 500 000. what does that look like today uh so we have roughly around 27 of them right now okay so that's also scaled have you increased quota target or is it still about half a million uh no each one of them have roughly around anywhere from one million to two million depending on the stack size how do they respond when you said hey guys when i increase quota from half a million to a million each one of them have hit at least uh three million or above last year so again in most cases this is almost uh there's no one who have not hit a target in most cases they affected their targets within a quarter or two quarters that's what happened so if i was one of those sales rep that joined you during cobit and i hit my quota like what are you probably paying me base and what are you paying me in comp a commission yeah it's roughly a hundred and hundred so you will get uh around yeah 200 plus yep yeah that's that's right in line with what we see 200 000 and then above a million dollar quota five to one ratio your sales people are profit centers right yeah exactly that's for any challenges i mean it sounds like it's all working any challenges scaling that sales team this is a the challenge i think at that time was really we we strive in being extremely transparent and when there's a lot of money coming to you you want to be make sure that you know as much as you want to win the customer you also sometimes wanna just be careful of what you're signing up with right because the way we have been able to scale is that we have been absolutely clear what our platform does how we can support you how we can help you right uh during the covert times a lot of customers would just want to sign up with you without even telling what they're looking for you know and again we were very careful of again not having sales people who are just out of the out there for money we care about just again we don't we don't want to get a customer for first year we want to get a customer for the next three to five years and we just want to make sure that we are signing up with the right customer so just having that transparency having that like extreme honesty within within sales people that's what we typically look for when you're trying to hire someone if you sign up no new customers over the past 12 months which we know won't happen but let's just assume it for a second how much will you grow revenue just because of the power of your expansion team yeah so uh historically speaking it has been close to 140 percent so our network innovation historically was 140 percent we have to see because in 2020 of course we got a lot of these customers who were trying to do a physical one now they did a virtual one as of now we are seeing that uh we will have at least a close like anywhere from 70 to 80 uh customer retention and hopefully 100 plus revenue retention so we'll see what will happen this year uh but uh historian's beginning has been anywhere from 140 to 150 revenue just to be clear 80 retention would be 20 churn and then 60 expansion for 140 net is that right that's historical numbers we'll see what will happen in 2021 but that's exactly what happened let's talk let's talk money you have you must be turning down vc emails every single day what's the highest offer you've gotten uh so uh yep i think we all have seen uh valuations for for visible etc but uh you know again we we have seen anywhere from 10 times or 20 times revenue so minimum 10 times all the way up to 20 times so far revenue is what we have seen so far so you've seen basically sort of soft offers above 600 million offer offers you know let us write a check and brad that valuation yeah roughly around 500 plus yeah yeah interesting um you've obviously chosen not to take into those offers correct as of no yeah what would change your mind yeah i think for us it says about the money it's really about finding the right partner uh you know we are here for the long term so we are not a company who is just an afterthought of covet we feel that uh we always knew that you know there would come a time that similar to any company they have uh microsoft teams they have some et cetera there would come a time where every company will need a virtual event license so we're here for the long term i think at this point uh there's a there's a lot of there's a lot of money being spent for this industry and i think there are a lot of people who are looking for that short-term gain short-term confirmation none of us knows what will happen over the next 12 to 14 months 12 to 24 months given people are going back to normal so again just anyone who is there for a bit long term you know five to seven years is what you're looking for primarily rather than someone who's just there for the short term and current captive i mean are you sole founder of co-founders uh so yeah i'm the founder of the company and then of course this company is uh there's a there's a parent company who own v fares uh then that's pay.com but yeah do you own the majority of the equity though or does the parent company own the majority parent company owns the majority okay so i didn't know this so this is makes it more difficult probably for you to move uh you know raise capital exit etc i imagine who is that parent company it's bathe.com bayt.com um and again they act as just we see so as such as such yep i think they are they're pretty awesome in a way that you know pretty much all the decisions are done and taken by me so i think on that front you know we have completely yeah that's nice so how much equity do you own today uh yeah i'm just unfortunately not allowed to disclose that whenever i've told you okay that's okay all right so got it that makes sense um i guess a couple other questions here right uh you know johnny has to figure out a way to validate his validation uh his valuation at hop and he does things like buy stream yard which is 30 million in revenue for 250. are you right now in acquisition talks with anybody uh we are in discussion uh with uh yeah within within within a sector where you know again we are moving towards hybrid so anyone who has been doing physical events before like physical element mobile apps we are in discussion with a couple of people do you think you would exit before december or no uh no got it so it'd be a longer term play there yeah would you look it for a full exit or would you have them like write a small equity check and businesses stay close and scale that way yeah i i i would love to i think we feel that we we have the team and we have that vision to kind of run this company for the long term so we're not trying to really uh you know just kind of fix it at this point and are you more interested in those kinds of partners that are direct competitors hop in visibo et cetera or adjacent categories it's more adjacent categories so we're looking for people you know who have done physical events before and as you know physical events are moving towards hybrid we're also moving towards hybrid just trying to find the right partner you know who you know together we can work with them to build a stronger company very good muhammad on that note let's wrap up with the famous five number one favorite business book uh the favorite business book have been uh yeah just zero to one like that uh is always our favorite one yeah well you've you've certainly done that uh number two is there a c a ceo you're following or studying i have always appreciated uh steve jobs but uh nowadays it's uh you know satya from microsoft yep yeah is microsoft one of the folks you would potentially exit to uh they have never reached out to us so yeah i have no idea number three what's your favorite online tool for building b fares uh i'm a big fan of pop spot so again you know uh with with this influx of uh new leads hubspot have helped us a lot so you know pretty kind of them yeah are using any sort of these new tools you know remote.com pilot any of these uh we are primarily again yeah i think just sticking with hubspot with uh slack you know those regular channels no no none of the other fancy ones as of now number three how many hours of sleep are number four how many hours of sleep every night yeah i think hardly for four to five hours max at this point what a thought muhammad that's how do you survive on four to five hours yeah i think with uh yeah i think when you keep on hitting those great numbers you know you know you have this at least rush you hardly get to sleep even in those four to five hours you have you know again a deal or something in your mind yeah how old are you i'm 37 30. okay you got plenty energy then and what's your situation married single kids married with two kids two kids okay last question what's something you wish you knew when you were 20. yeah i think uh yeah uh again the earlier you start your business early you get into things that you're passionate about the better it is you know i think you know the longer you delay you're just missing out on tons of those great energy years that you have are you the largest player in this virtual event space that is still bootstrapped uh i yeah i would i would like to believe that yeah i think i don't think so you know when i look at others like introduce sex connects hop in i think you know each one of them is no longer bootstrapped so i would like to believe that yeah all right that's the headline biggest bootstrap company virtual event space grew 10x over the past 12 months flirting with 30 million bucks in terms of run rate today hoping to break 40 million by the end of the year over 1 250 customers up from 170 just about a year and a half ago we've hired 200 people over the past 18 months now 250 full-time on the team they've turned down valuations in the 500 million dollar range they want to find a long-term partner in acquisition talks now but might not pull the trigger we will see what happens muhammad thanks for taking us to the top thanks nathan one more thing before you go we have a brand new show every thursday at 1 pm central it's called shark tank for sas we call it deal or bust one founder comes on three hungry buyers they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards their expenses their revenue arpu cac ltv you name it they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live it is fun to watch every thursday 1 p.m central additionally remember these recorded founder interviews go live we release them here on youtube every day at 2 p.m central to make sure you don't miss any of that make sure you click the subscribe button below here on youtube the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live i wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the sas world whether it's an acquisition a big fundraise a big sale a big profitability statement or something else i don't want you to miss it additionally if you want to take this conversation deeper and further we have by far the 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hello everyone my guest today is Muhammad Yunus he's an Internet executive with over 10 years of experience including general management of small to mid-sized organizations product development business operations and strategy he's conceptualized and grown multiple businesses from zero to multi-million dollars in North America and in the Middle East he's now building a V Ferris Muhammad are you ready to take it to the top yep all right what's the company do and how do you make money so we provide worship and platform that companies used to run their online events um they yeah we have companies like fortune 500 companies who use our debt from to virtual career fairs and we have universities who do virtual openlayers with us we have government organizations you know who run virtual job fairs with us and then we have create show providers who do virtual trade shows with us so it's primarily a software-as-a-service virtual event platform and what's the average one of these customers pay you per month would you say so it's a we have to pricing we have a bereavement pricing then we have an annual license so our event pricing is six thousand dollars annually since it's close to thirty thousand dollars on average thirty thousand or twenty thirty thirty thirty thousand and we're I mean the challenge I've seen with these kinds of companies is there to seasonal it's very hard to actually be a SAS company with predictable revenue because too many people have one-off events and then cancel sure yep so I think that's what we initially thought also but I think the way it has worked for us ever since we have started a couple of years back is that those companies were spent who have done one event with us they keep on coming back to us to do repeat event so right now almost sixty percent of our revenue comes from repeat business from our repeat customers so even though a seasonal but given the price tag is defend a six on the whole event over the over the whole year it just works better than any other software as a service company where does more of your so if someone pays 30 grand for the year divided by your per event price of six hundred it have to run at least fifty events to make the annual pricing make sense which seems highly unlikely so what percentage of your revenue is coming from the one-time six hundreds it's not I said six thousand so one time is six huh yeah so so basically any company who wants to do five events or more would go ahead with our animal essence so the likes of Nestle a t-mobile AT&T all of these are customers they do annual essence with us because they keep did they run ten to twelve events a year for them annual essence works better whereas other small mediums companies who just want to do one event will pay $6,000 and do that one event with us sorry six hundred or six thousand six thousand six thousand dollars okay and and just to be clear you get what's the breakdown past twelve months eighty percent is coming from annual contracts and twenty percent one time it's close to 50/50 so fifty percent of that is coming from a newa contracts and remaining 50 percent is our single license okay we'll talk more about that here in a second but let's promise on a timeline first when did you launch the company what year our team is when we conceptualize this particular and and where were you kind of life wise did you just exit when your past company is where were you no no so I have been working with our parent company for the past 11 years so my job over there is more like an internal entrepreneur we come up with new products and services so yeah three years back four years back I moved to North America here in Canada so yeah at that point I saw that just kind of niche you know kind of industry where we believe that we can easily kind of pull it off so yeah 200 scene we started it off over the past two and a half years has been growing pretty well for us that's great and now we bootstrapped arrays no no no it's all internally funded by our parent company okay so are they on a cap table so yep our pian company is bait and they are funded by Tiger global management sorry who is it home so the parent company is bait but the investor behind bait is Tiger global management so I spell the name of your parent company ba whitey be a white bait okay interesting where they oh the job site in the Middle East yeah they are the number one drops like in the Middle East yeah god this is like indeed calm for the Middle East basically like like long story indeed of the Middle East yeah yeah yeah interesting okay good but but they allow you to operate with enough kind of control that you kind of your bait um and you're the CEO founder you can take the company wherever you want yeah yeah internal CEO for this protocol company um we primarily run this business in North America almost sixty to seventy percent our business comes from US and Canada remaining 30 percent from all over the world but yeah I have full control in terms of day-to-day operations and that's for a second ignore the one-off folks people on an air how many how many customers do you have on an annual basis today so uh see we have over 160 to 170 so close to 60 to 70 of them at least our annual contracts those who do one-time events with us I have to say that you can even think of them as more a good 80 percent of them they have seasonal events with us so you know someone who took runs a benefits fair with us will always run average the benefits vary with us in October right it runs for a month it's over they will come back next year October time again to run another virtual benefit to pray with us so so yeah so so almost 40 to 50 percent our annual which is a again close to 60 70 customers and then we have around a hundred plus for single events who comes seasonally got it okay good so 65 folks paying that on your annual plans 30 grand a year that's about 2500 each pays per month so that means you're doing just on that Chum about 160 grand per month and you said that's 50% of your total revenue so if you add back on the one-time on top of that it takes you to somewhere called around 320 or something like that per month is that generally accurate a lot of them came this year so so we are still kind of accruing it right now we are at a at a at an annual run rate of two million dollars so we'll hit 2 million dollars is here oh that's great okay what are you are right now though so right now as of now we are so that's it for this year we close to 1.6 million so you know we expect yeah I think believes across 2 million dollars by the end of the year okay so when you say one point six nine are you saying if you take last month's revenue in multiplied by 12 its 1.6 million yeah basically last 12 months revenue it's close to 1.6 but yeah we're we're increasing every revenue on a monthly basis so we'll be close to 2 million dollars by the end of the year okay that's great and that's 50-50 split between one-timers and annuals yeah that's great and what's the end and so what is that the past 12 months you've been 1.6 but taking back one full year so if you're at 1.6 million in ARR after sorry give me forward-looking so we did this wrong you're last month's revenue whatever that was multiply forward by 12 and then I'm curious what are you growing at year over here so as of now we agree 100 percent year on year so basically whatever our 2016-17 revenue was infused by a hundred percent you know with the past 12 months we keep on increasing hundred percent you know over here over here you know right now so that's so that would mean if you if you're doing calling like 133 right now per month which would put you at you know the 1.6 million you just said that means a year ago you're doing what 70 grand a month something like that so as of now as of now we are close to 165 to 170 thousand dollars a month as of now but yeah so we expect that yeah that's why my another year will be close to two million dollars but yeah I think over the next 12 months it will close it will be close to three million dollars so sorry just to be clear if you're doing 165 right now per month you're a our run rate is already past 2 million yeah you're giving me on a cash flow basis you're saying you're gonna collect 2 million in cash over the by the end of the year yeah okay but your run right you already you already beat 2 million yep yeah that's great talk to me about talked about how you're driving this growth how are you signing up these new paid accounts meetings or big deals so most of them are their incoming leaves I have to say I think in our case we have an extremely lucky we have had some great customers you know who has been really happy with our services and as you know they kind of speak with other HR executives you know people who wants to do virtual events with us they eventually keep on knocking on our doors and ask us you know how we can have something similar to let's say what AT&T is doing or what t-mobile is doing or what necessary is doing right so almost 80 percent our business is purely incoming you know so so people call as people reach out to us people come to our website to ask us our services 20% is outbound where we reach out to other customers and ok and so when you look at your fully weighted cap to get one of these new $30,000 your customers what are you spending to acquire that customer so so did there two aspects where one of them is purely in terms of lead generation um there's pretty minimal hums you know we spend close to $10,000 on Google Adwords so that's what we come on any what month yeah people come online search for yeah you know virtual career fair virtual job fairs image to come to our site and then then then I think just to retain them you know we kind of spend a bit of yeah I think we we do some customizations we prepare nice which a lot beads sound so there's a kind of concentrating and deliver that service okay but yeah you didn't answer my question so a cost to acquire new 30,000 our customer is about what see right now we're we're getting around at least 10 to 12 customers new customers a month so and so you talking about you know roughly thousand dollar per customer but that's just the ad spend you must have some people doing sales so we do we just started outbound literally to once back so as of now it's like you know you can say like all the customers as of now I had up until two months back for purely incoming they were never outgoing but yeah now we have two salespeople yeah you can say lie better what's the total team size 20 people 20 okay so 2 out of the 20 are of sales people album sales people then they're - who just handed incoming leads and closed them yes sorry just to be clear I'm curious when you calculate a fully weighted CAC it is a matter of his inbound outbound if they're out whatever if you have two people closing these leads that you're getting from ten grand a month and Google spend your fully weighted kak would include they're not just the pace then but also like their salaries any onboarding costs and customers all that stuff you don't calculate you don't include those though no we don't we don't count them something that has such an edge leads in each like online lead span or lead generation expense in separate which is ten thousand dollars then you have salaries and commissions and like those things are separate so you can add another two hundred thousand dollars for the whole year for those kind of salaries if you want to I see so Jay do you break it down on a per customer bases in other words do you get that $30,000 customer did that payback period less than 12 months would you say absolutely I think just to give you a rough number we would say like on average one customer would cause us at this point I think I know close to four to five thousand dollars in terms of fully weighted you have fully weighted yeah yes you're getting paid back there pretty quick less than six months easily yeah that's great and what about churn obviously it's critical in a SAS business what's your turn so uh see justjust because we have these two models right there's one who's only signing for one event you know it's hard to kind of calculation for that and then you have these annual contracts with us so so what we have seen is that for those who do just one event with us at least eighty percent of them are doing repeat business with us so are here late join as twenty percent those who are doing annual essence with us are our enumerators close to ninety five percent so you don't we hardly lose any customer on the on the end well as since as of now for the past three years that's great and where's the whole team based so we have like the team spread across four different locations out just because we get clients from all over the world um you know so we have team in Dallas we have team here in Toronto we have in Dubai and then we have in Pakistan so we have spread across four different countries very good any plans to raise capital soon Mohammed or no so I love no we don't need as such you know I think we have been turned like we are already a profitable business but yeah I think as we as we scale this a bit forward harm yeah we might be looking for external funding would you sell the company say if the right deal came along I actually have no idea you know I think this is more with the shareholders but yeah as of now I think we are pretty happy where we are going and um we'll see like when when the right deal comes do you any deal like that would you have to approve it with with the other shareholders or do you own more than 50 percent where you would control it no no it has to go to whether she'll yeah all right very good let's wrap up here with the famous five number one what's your favorite business book it's I have to face the recent book by item was pretty sorry what's it called the original got it yeah number two is their CEO you're following or studying right now so uh I studied Steve Jobs for a long time and I think yeah I think that's that's who I focused on primarily but now I know it is I'm following Satya you know some Microsoft pretty aggressively so number three what's your favorite online tool for building the business hop sport yeah I pretty like that party number four how many hours of sleep to eat every night I think on average four to five hours it's pretty good in which situation married single kids married with two kids two cool hands are full how old are you I'm 35 35 last question Mohammed what do you is your 20 year old self new I think my 22 yourself would new that you know get into our dimension as soon as you can I think this is where the fun is this is where you control your own destiny and the highly encourage entrepreneurship to anyone guys start a company faster he worked at corporate intensity know what I want to do my own thing so he kind of spun out this company called V fairs online virtual event management launch in 2016 now 20 people for remote locations all around the world they've got customers a 65 customers paying annual contracts call it 30 grand then another call it 60 70 customers that pay per event fees of about $6,000 per event they're currently doing 165 thousand bucks per month that's up about a hundred percent year-over-year so 80 grand per month just a year ago in September of 27 teen scaling quickly 20% logo turn per year and their code which pays kind of per event and 95 percent retention per year and a cohort paying on annual contracts healthy K payback period bootstrapped which I love Mohammed thank you for taking us to the top thanks I think