Clientpoint Revenue, Valuation & Funding (2024)

[00:00] Hey, folks. My guest today is Andy Jedynak. He's a seasoned venture backed high growth CEO, has led a number of digital media SaaS, IoT, mobile, and app businesses. He currently served as president and CEO of clientpoint, a top rated global SaaS platform. In past lives, he's played European pro basketball and produced television for NBC. Andy, you ready to take us to the top? [00:18] >> Absolutely, Nathan. Good to see you again. [00:20] Good to see you too. [00:21] You have to you have to tease us here with this NBC thing. What was your favorite show that you worked on? [00:25] >> Well, I actually worked on a show called Money Matters, which was fantastic because my, set designer won a an Emmy for design, and my producer won an Emmy for the show open, which is the thing that happens in the first twenty seconds of the show. So my team did really well with that, and that so that makes it my favorite. [00:46] That's amazing. Okay. So how do you get into clientpoint and what is clientpoint doing for customers today? [00:50] >> Absolutely. And clientpoint's really interesting in the sense that we have a totally different view of how we do SaaS. Most solutions out there solve a problem, e sign, video conferences, document sharing, calendar scheduling. We don't look at ourselves as a solution to solve a problem. We look at ourselves as a solution to help enable relationships. We call ourselves a business relationship enablement tool, and everything a relationship needs online today, especially in this remote COVID world, happens [01:27] >> all in one place called a clientpoint. So you meet with someone at one link, you chat there, you schedule meetings, you share documents, you e sign. Anything you wanna do happens at one link between you and whoever you're doing business with. [01:41] Interesting. Okay. So that's what you're doing now. What are customers paying on average per month or per year to use your tool? [01:47] >> Yeah. On average, it goes across the board. If you look at, you know, from the very, very biggest to very, very smallest, it's probably an average of about $75 per user per month. [01:56] Okay. So that's consistent since 2018. No no real ARPU expansion there. [02:00] >> Yeah. We we, I think what's happened is actually our rates have gone way way up, but also our largest customers have grown many, many, many times over. And so the bigger you get, the cheaper it is the price per seat. So it stayed about the same as it was four years ago on average across the board. [02:16] I see. Can I add don't obviously name the customer, but what's the largest customer pay you today? [02:22] >> Oh, we are well, I don't talk about our specific numbers, but I'll say it's I'll say it's it's better than 7 figures. [02:28] Okay. I was gonna say, you know, some these publicly traded SaaS companies, it's amazing. You see that, you know, a 100 customers paying a million dollar per year, but you've got at least one paying 7 figures, which is great. [02:36] >> Yeah, we do. We do. It's broken up. It's interesting. Our tool, our solution, we're really alone out there. There's no one doing exactly what we do. And when you look at all of our customers, one third of our revenues are enterprise, one third of our revenues are mid market, and one third of our revenues are SMBs. [02:54] Interesting. What's not a curiosity, if you look at all your revenue as a percentage as a pie, is it also 30% enterprise revenue, 30% mid is enterprise 60%? [03:04] >> And that's what I meant. It's actually if you look at it a pie is all of our revenues, it's about 33% enterprise income, 30% mid market, 30, 33% small business. So a lot more small business users, which is so exciting because there's such a need even for solo players out there to be able to have a tool like this where everything's all in one place. The alternative is, you know, you wanna schedule. Calendly is a great tool. [03:29] >> We'll go over to Calendly. You wanna meet? Zoom is incredible. Go over to Zoom. You wanna have an eSign? Well, go over to DocuSign. Everything's all over the place in b to b relationships, and then it's all anchored by email. You wanna share a document? Use a great tool called DocSend or something else. We just take all those tools. We put them into one place, whether it's those people that I named or if people would [03:51] >> prefer to use our own version of those tools and pay less. [03:55] Interesting. Yeah. That makes sense. Now you when did you join the business? What year? [03:59] >> I joined at the beginning of twenty eighteen. [04:01] Okay. And the company was founded in in what? 2008? [04:04] >> Yeah. It it was actually started in 2009. It was built within a company that had a need to compete and wanted to do a better job. So they built the software for themselves then. And then a few years later, they actually started selling it to other companies about 2011. [04:20] Oh, what's going on there, YouTube? Good to see you guys. Now imagine this. You love watching these interviews with SaaS founders, but imagine if we took all of the valuation data out from over 2807 interviews I've done manually. Saves you a lot of time. Well, we've done this. We've built it into the beautiful interface inside of Founderpath. Check this out. I'll show you how you can access this in a second, but you log in, you connect [04:43] your Stripe account, you see your valuation real time. You can see what it changed over the past eighty eight days and even set goals for valuation this year. Now the secret evaluation is there's many different ways to value a SaaS business. So the reason you're gonna see three or four different valuations inside of your Founderpath dashboard, this is all free by the way, is because depending on who's doing the buying of your SaaS company, you're gonna [05:07] get a different valuation. A VC is gonna pay a different valuation. Private equity firm is different. If you're gonna do a minority sale, that's different. And if you sell the whole business, that's a different valuation. You can see all those when I hover over here, Right? So the teal is what a VC would pay. Yellow is what private equity and red is if you sold the whole thing outright. Now what's cool about this is this is [05:29] not built off random data. Again, you guys hear these interviews on YouTube. All these datas are built from real time valuation data points founders share with us on the show. So traction, 1,200,000 seed round, 3.7 raise. They sold 22% of their business. Go in here and filter by the event. Maybe you only wanna see companies that have sold the whole business. Well, here are a bunch that have been acquired the valuation and the multiple. Maybe you're [05:55] going out right now and you're raising your seed round. We'll go in here and look at all this recent seed deals that went down, what they raised, what valuation they raised at and what percent that they sold. There's never been a larger dataset of SaaS valuations than what you can get now inside of Founderpath. And we're thrilled to bring it to you. All We're right, gonna go back to the YouTube video here in a second, but [06:17] if you wanna check this tool out, if you wanna jump in and sign up, you can check it out for free to get your valuation at this link. This link, founderpath.com/products/valuations. Or if you go to founderpath.com and hover over products, click on get your valuation here, and go ahead and sign up to give it a whirl. Again, all that valuation data live right inside the platform. I hope to see you there. Alright. Let's jump back into [06:43] the interview. And why they bring you in and what excited you back in 2018? [06:47] >> Three things. First off, one of the board members I I had more than enough going on in my life, but one of the board members pulled the friend card and said, you've got to meet the CEO. He said, do do me a favor. They're looking to level up. They're looking to bring in a SaaS guy. You know, I'm a I'm a force former Silicon Valley tech CEO board member. They've got an incredible business. You gotta meet [07:09] >> this guy. And I said, okay. I'll I'll I'll have coffee with him. Fantastic guy and a fantastic group of founders. Wonderful people. That was number one. I really, really appreciate good culture and good people. Number two, they had built an amazing product over several years, and they just listened to their largest customers. And every week, every month, every quarter, they kept adding more features based on what? Based on what their customers said they wanted. And they'd [07:35] >> managed to build out a very, very deep and extensive enterprise grade SaaS tool. And then number three, they they didn't know what they had. I mean, literally what they had built was something that could change the face of B2B SaaS. And those three things, I said, you know what, I'm gonna jump in. So I changed my life and jumped in at the time. [07:51] I love that. Now, Andy, you mentioned a board. So how much did they have? Have they raised a bunch of capital before you joined? If so, how much? [07:57] >> Yeah. Almost nothing. They'd they'd brought in about a 250,000 and and the rest they'd really done on their own. They bootstrapped the company from the beginning. They had brought in a 250,000. And then after that, we brought me on and that we we expanded it from there. But we haven't brought too much capital in, which is interesting. [08:15] So so no no other outside capital besides the $250 k even after you joined? [08:19] >> We have a a bunch of individual investors. Investors. [08:23] Of of [08:23] >> them them are are our customers. They're they're actually most of them are CEOs of our customer customer companies who just love our product and want a piece of the action. They've all invested, but I mean, the total investment of the company is less than $5,000,000. We've just done really, really well on our own steam. [08:38] How have you structured that? Let's say someone listening right now also wants to let their customers, CEOs write checks. Do you do an individual convertible note for every single investor or an RUV and an SPV or how do you structure it? [08:49] >> Yeah. We we do a a convertible note. You know, you know, there's a lot of ways to do it. And and I think for your listeners, if they're interested in investing, there's a lot of CEOs out there who are gonna put pre money. They're gonna put a big price tag on their companies. And this is a this is a $40,000,000 idea. So you invest on a convertible note and it's a $40,000,000 valuation. I I think that [09:14] >> there's a lot of people who who value the company too high. We didn't do that. We took a very fair handed amount evaluation for the company. We've slowly, you know, grown that amount to the the cap of the note, the discount to a note over time as we've shown that we've been able to grow the company. So it was very fair, very even handed. And, as we've grown, we've got a really great syndicate of guys who [09:39] >> who are who are part of the team. [09:41] And what do you anticipate will cause the notes to convert? Do you believe it will be on a priced equity round, or do you believe you're more likely to be, like, you know, acquired and the conversion happens at acquisition? [09:49] >> You know what? We are we're actually right now raising our very first institutional round. [09:54] There we go. There's the answer. [09:55] >> Yeah. [09:56] Alright. How you wanna share? So that'll be your series a I mean, your seed. Right? Or your series a? [10:00] >> Well well, it's we gotta we make too much money to call it a seed. Call it an early a. Call it a late seed, whatever it might be. But but it it's it's a small amount. We're gonna bring in 5,000,000. Okay. We are literally just now starting to have meetings with with institutional players, potential strategics that we work with. And so I think the next step is to get that syndicate of investors converting into that round, [10:25] >> which I'm really excited. I'm really happy for them because we've done real well. [10:28] Yeah, know that's great. Now most people in their series A these days, you know, they're selling between 10 and 15% of the business. Is that sort of what you're targeting? [10:35] >> Yeah, I think so. [10:36] Okay. So you're targeting sort of 45,000,000 pre money, something like that? [10:40] >> Yeah. We're, yeah, we're gonna let the market decide what that's gonna be. But we're pretty optimistic that this is probably the ballpark. [10:47] Yeah. Okay. Back to the business. So you get going. You joined in 2018. Very little raise before that. You've obviously driven some nice growth. How many customers today are on the platform? [10:55] >> Total is in the thousands now. [10:57] Okay. [10:57] >> We don't get the exact numbers out, but we're now in the thousands. So I think when I last spoke with you, was a much, much smaller amount. [11:04] Yeah. I mean, can you, maybe provide a little tighter range? Are we talking like a thousand or like 99,000? [11:10] >> It's less than 10,000. [11:13] Okay, perfect. So between one and ten thousand, somewhere in there. Now, is that a big goal for you guys? Mean, do you think you can break 10,000 customers next year? [11:20] >> We actually, our vision is to have 2,000,000 people using clientpoint by the end of twenty twenty three. So the way we're growing our business now is it's what we're gonna start to do is really let more and more people have free access to a light version of it. And we're really excited about that. We're in pre beta on that. We're gonna be launching it in beta a little bit later this year. So the idea here, what [11:45] >> we have, especially in the post COVID world, is so, so important. Just to have everything. I mean, imagine you being able to do all your business on one link. You have one link. You give it to a million people, and everybody who comes to that link will have their own business relationship workspace with you. Every single person. That's not available out there, and we wanna make that available to the masses. So we're gonna start giving away [12:10] >> a free version, so that everyone can use it. Anybody in business can use it. And then there's lots of ways for people to get more by paying a little bit of money or for them to leverage into a full enterprise version through that program. [12:23] Makes sense. Now, Andy, talk to me about Team today. What's the full how many folks are full time? [12:27] >> We are now a little over 50 and the majority is still product and technology. I think we're a technology and product forward company. We, you know, we're you know, I'm sure a lot of folks talk to you about the idea of product led growth versus sales led growth. And so most of our team is still there in that side of the business. So we think a great experience is gonna lead to delighted customers, which is one [12:52] >> of our values. And so that's really where the majority of our folks are. [12:55] Mhmm. Now, I take, you said between 1,000 and 10,000. If I take 5,000 right in the middle times that $75 a month ARPU, that puts you around $400 k a month in revenue or around a $5,000,000 run rate. Is that generally correct? [13:07] >> Yeah. Like I say, we don't share numbers, but I love your math. [13:11] When you raise the 5,000,000 series, and by the way, that's also consistent with what a series A company would be, somewhere between sort of 2 and $5,000,000 of ARR. It's also consistent when we take your headcount and multiply times 110,000 in revenue per employee, which is average for VC backed company, which you are because you raised $5,000,000, you sort of hit all that. But let's say you get the deal done, you raise 5,000,000 series A. What [13:31] can you use that money for? How large you think you can grow with just that capital? [13:35] >> We expect to use that capital and invest pretty heavily into the business and be back to profitability within five quarters, and we plan to do a growth round right before that. So we're gonna invest hard. We're gonna get close back up to, you know, you know, kinda minus five minus 7% EBITDA range and then double down again in a growth round in that. That's five quarters afterwards. [13:59] Help me understand how that works. Mean, if you're gonna raise a 5,000,000 series a and then invest it aggressively, I mean, that means you're gonna be negative for many quarters, you know, three, four, five quarters. So how do you when you say profitability, you just think growth is gonna happen, it's gonna happen rapidly so you'll be profitable five quarters from now? [14:14] >> That is that's correct. Yeah. So we're gonna invest heavy into product and also into marketing and sales. And and, you know, it's basically what we've done. We've cracked the code on our new category, category one, business relationship enablement. We have built a machine to be able to pour a lot more gasoline on it in the form of cash in terms of marketing and in terms of growing and building up the product. Having a better product creates [14:38] >> more virality, creates more critical mass, and that's also gonna be a big driver to growth. It's not just driving leads to sales. [14:45] Yep. Very good. Andy, good stuff. We're rooting for you. Let's wrap up here with the famous five. Number one, favorite business book. [14:51] >> You know, I have to tell you, my my favorite right now is Never Split the Difference. Great book. I'd recommend it to anybody. [14:58] Number two, is there a CEO you're following or studying? [15:01] >> You know, I have to tell you when Jeff Bezos gave up the reins, I decided to really study what he had done from the very beginning to his final letter that he wrote to the industry. I think it's fantastic what he's done. I've been so I've been really looking at all the things he did. And he left me and I think all of us in an industry with a really great and important point. That is, you [15:22] >> know, what value are you giving back to the marketplace? Are you giving back value? And if you're giving value back to the marketplace, that's how you're gonna have a successful company. [15:32] >> Mhmm. [15:33] Number three, what's your favorite online tool besides your own for building clientpoint? [15:37] >> Oh, man. I gotta tell you, I absolutely love Salesforce. Salesforce, beautiful CRM. We are partners with them all over the world. CRM and clientpoint are a hand and glove mix. The the CRM is where the database and all the information about the client is. Clientpoint is where the relationship itself happens. We use Salesforce. We love it. So I'll give you that one. [15:58] Number four. How many hours of sleep do you get every night? [16:02] >> Be between four and six. [16:03] Okay. That's not bad. [16:04] In situation, married, single, kids? [16:06] >> I am married with three fine young men in their twenties. [16:10] Oh, wow. Okay. [16:11] Busy guy. How old are you? [16:12] >> I am 59. [16:14] 59. [16:15] Last question. Something you wish you knew when you were 20. [16:18] >> Let's see. I think I think when we look at everything we need to know to be successful, we think of skills and knowledge. What do you know? How do you apply it? I think what's even more important that is is your mental and emotional strength. What is your capability to be able to have great emotional intelligence? What's your ability to have confidence and certainty? What's your ability to be able to process fear in a way that [16:44] >> you use it as fuel? All these mental and emotional strengths are a lot more important than your skills and knowledge. If I'd known that at 20, I think that would have been fantastic. [16:55] Guys, there we have clientpoint launched back many years ago. Andy came in in 2018 to help really, you know, drive additional growth, which he has. They're now between 1,000 and 10,000 paying customers. They pay on average $75 per month. They're now looking to scale raising and targeting a $5,000,000 series A. They raised about $5,000,000 to date from individual LPs who are also their customers, which we love. Very community driven approach. We'll see if growth catches up to [17:18] the raising. They've got a team of 50 right now as they look to continue to scale. Andy, thanks for taking us to the top. [17:23] >> Nathan, I loved it. Take care. [17:27] One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers. They try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday one [17:52] p. M. Central. Additionally, remember these recorded founder interviews go live. We release them here on YouTube every day at two p. M. Central to make sure you don't miss any of that. Make sure you click the subscribe button below here on YouTube, the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live. I wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the SaaS world, whether it's [18:13] an acquisition, a big fundraise, a big sale, a big profitability statement or something else. I don't want you to miss it. Additionally, if you want to take this conversation deeper and further, we have by far the largest private Slack community for B2B SaaS founders. You want to get in there. We've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing. You can go in there and quickly search and see what [18:34] people are saying. Sign up for that at nathanlatka.com/slack. In the meantime, I'm hanging out with you here on YouTube. I'll be in the comments for the next thirty minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode and if you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up. We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, I do it so that we can all learn. We have to [18:54] counter those people. We got to push them away. Click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that I appreciate your guys'support. Alright, I'll be in the comments. See you.

hello everyone my guest today is andy jedinak as client points president and ceo he's a seasoned venture-backed high growth leader with extensive board and operational experience he's lived the growth of large-scale digital media sas iot mobile and app businesses in the b2c and b2b sectors andy began his business career at nbc ge after completing a successful career as a professional basketball player in europe andy are you ready to take us to the top absolutely all right thanks for joining so lupin brian real quick you're obviously founder or sorry president ceo what's bryan do so brian leads our sales and marketing and we're together today talking to clients so i thought we'd both hop on with you that's great okay client point tell us about the company what's the company doing how do you make money all right so client point is your digital wingman for your real world relationships uh in business relationships are obviously important they're everything so as you grow your business and get new clients and get new partners we create a custom website for every one of your sales prospects doing it is that simple drag and drop lightning fast and organized but it really what it is it includes all the documents you've developed to help you sell videos with marketing materials animations even ar vr content e-signature everything you need to help uh build the relationship close the deal you throw that up on a client point for that relationship and and boom higher close rates uh shorter sales cycles less proposal errors it costs you business uh you know plus for our smaller clients because it looks so beautiful to have this client point as part of your sales process they're getting bigger deals it really makes them look really really great so while you're doing the real work uh talking to your prospector your client in the real world we do all the work to support that relationship all aggregated together in one simple place all the stuff you exchange and work on together uh super easy point-and-click and andy how do you price so how do you price the sorry to cut you off but i want to get as much as possible how do you price the product sure so it's typical b2b sas pricing so we charge per seat per month okay and what do you charge percentage clients we also have a tiered structure and andy what do you charge per seat per month typically on average our clients pay 75 dollars per seat the larger ones pay a little bit more or the smaller one pay a little bit more the larger ones pay quite a bit less so would you self-select yourself in kind of the mid-market smb or enterprise space so we're the number one rate in proposal automation for enterprise so we're in about a dozen verticals in the enterprise space a lot of major clients that people have heard of but we have a lot of small business clients we have a lot of medium-sized business as well interesting okay put this on a timeline for us when'd you launch the company what year so the company started ten years ago was actually built to scratch its own itch it's a hell of a time no 2008's a hell of a time to launch a company i know well well the origin story is incredible so the the company actually started as part of a facility services company that was in trouble because a lot of the biggest global players were trying to to move into their into their territory they needed to figure out how to look really really big so what they did was they developed this proposal automation for their own company they did it for two years they beat back the global competition which is actually our clients today uh so they actually became our clients and then in 2010 we launched it made the product available and ever since then we've been cooking it so who led this spin out were you at the manufacturing company first and spun it out or what i know actually i just joined brian did as well we both just joined at the beginning of the year so the client that our we spun out last year we formed it called paperless proposal we spun out we rebranded as client point at the beginning of this year brian and i joined together and we've had a great year hold on i i missed the connect to paperless paperless as a proposal or pipeline yeah paperless proposal was our former name for many years so a lot of your listeners may have heard of us as that why'd you change yeah we changed it because we're really a lot bigger than just the kind of the idea of a paperless proposal you know what i mean our mission is to digitally super empower business relationships part of it is dating getting married as two companies together and a proposal is part of it but we're really the platform where you have your relationship between you and your prospect ultimately you and your client client point is a lot more fitting to that paperless proposal is very kind of a narrow narrow description that doesn't fit where we're headed and what go ahead ryan 2008 people's proposal was kind of innovative but now if you mention the name paperless proposal the quick objection you get is hey we're already paperless what are you talking about it was important that we changed for that reason too yeah interesting um uh there's always a catalyst when a new president or ceo is coming in and brian you're coming into what was the catalyst at the beginning of this year why did you guys come in well the uh the company clearly saw that uh you know that we have a product that is very well respected all the customers the clients we have in many industries love it and it's rated very highly the market seemed right to be able to grow so the board uh and the and the founders the chairman lawrence abrams decided it was time to really go hit the market hard the vector was going to be great and uh so uh they decided to make the make the decision and brought folks like us in and we've got a lot of background in growing companies so we did it you say board i think vc has the company raised about traditional capital it's all from the former company plowing money in yeah no vc capital yet uh we've got right now we're in the midst of a convertible round uh our one of the board members brought in the first quarter million of that convertible round when when we started to build the team here at the beginning of the year they decided to double it and since then we brought in more convertible investors all but one of which are actually clients of client point um so we're up to 900 000 we're going to one and a half million and then we're gonna do a five to seven million dollar round in q2 of next year so just be clear you're rising 950 000 today on a convertible note you're letting that roll to 1.5 does that have a strong closed date or no it's infinite until you hit 1.5 yeah it's going to close pretty quickly we see that it's going to probably close by the end of january uh maybe february well does it have but i'm saying what is the trigger to the closing is it a date or is it when you hit 1.5 when we hit 1.5 okay so this could technically roll infinitely if you never hit 1.5 it could yeah i would right now our pipeline you know has us i i don't think we have a problem circling that and getting that you know i i get that by the way what i'm saying is there there are a lot of people that roll convertible notes and what happens is it creates a really weird uh dynamic between the person that first put the first dollar in the note a year ago right that took all way more risk than where the company's at today when i put a dollar and because it's less risky you've proven some growth but they're all in the same terms that that's why i'm asking yeah actually great question great point and it's good for your listeners we've laddered up the note so it's actually in three different tranches at three different valuations oh i see i see three different caps absolutely do you also change the discount rate as you go up no we actually we just we kept the cap going up the discount paid the interest rate stays the same uh always interesting interesting model okay very good so okay that's your capitalizing company and what's the team size today how many people uh we currently have 25 full-time people and a whole lot of contractors okay and when you say a whole lot i mean what are you talking um i would say 12 uh 12 13 contractors okay so the 25 full time where's everyone based uh we have the sun never sets on client points so we're on east coast west coast philippines uh we are in india pakistan poland and we're based here in southern california so kind of remote all over the place uh most of the people are here okay we do have various people especially client service folks and then a lot of the we had some incredible developer team uh in india and pakistan interesting and then talk to me about churn turns critical on any sas company what's your guys's churn rate today and how do you make sure to keep it low oh okay we're getting um it's okay i'll i'll repeat it uh churns critical in any sas company what's your turn today and how to keep it low uh the churn is i think fantastic it's one of the reasons i joined the company a year ago it's one and a quarter percent uh most of which from a lot of the smaller companies sorry is that per month or per year one and a quarter per month okay and is that revenue or logo uh that is revenue logo about the same uh the revenue churn mrr is slightly lower than the logo churn um but when you look at the logos that have turned out they tend to be the small businesses that are more volatile anyway okay we haven't lost a fortune 500 company in over a year and a half so one and a quarter a month is about 15 logo churn per year you're saying revenue turns about the same or maybe a little less caught 13 14 percent because it's basically all the same rpus um talk to me about expansion triggers do you and maybe brian this is a question for you since you're leading sales do you guys have strong pricing axes that allow you to drive upsells pretty aggressively or is expansion not a real growth driver for you right now uh everything's the growth driver for us right now expansion's a huge deal a lot of times with a company like ours we're starting off with little pilot programs because we're coming on to a company that's been around for a long time now when we close deals it's more of a global rollout but we've got a lot of companies huge companies that andy and i walked into with pilot programs that we're now building a case for a bigger roll out and of course tiered pricing's a part of that what allows you to drive the upsell is it adding seats is it a usage based upsell is it just a product module based up so what is it yeah so it would be a seat upsell okay that's your only leverage is this per seat model you just add more seats we actually have another a pretty major strategy of expansion um that in talking to our clients over the last year and getting an mvp together we probably we think it's probably going to be a larger part of the business so it is a product expansion uh we're not ready to disclose it yet but when we talk in six months hopefully again we can tell you more about it okay so per se per seat obviously is a strong upsell but like the most powerful upsells you see out there are actually utility and data-based ones so hubspot it's number of contacts cloud checker it's percent of cloud spend you're telling me right now you guys don't have that metric built into your pricing axes you know we don't we already have the seats and tiers now and um but you're right we need to build a lot of those in over time um we're just delivering value and we'll evolve as time goes on yeah i know that that makes good sense okay good um talk to me about uh talk to me about how aggressive you're being to acquire new customers right so to get a new 75 a month seat what's your fully weighted cac look like the fully weighted calculator is about seven thousand dollars okay and how how many what is that contract size that seven grand is landing so i'll give you an aggregate so aggregate total lifetime you know value your lifetime uh you know value you know calculated obviously with gross margin not top line revenue so calculated the right way is about thirty five thousand dollars on average across everyone from our tiniest to our biggest um so seven thousand dollar a cap okay got it so you're spending seven grand obviously to get a 35 000 ltv and that is with gross margin multiplied on the back side of it so that's a conservative kind of ltd which is how it's supposed to be calculated yeah absolutely so investors hate it when you do it off the top line rather than just it makes you look bad right yeah it well so yeah it all i think context is important but yeah i always like to be conservative i like gross margin there um talk to me about a payback period though so you spend seven grand how quickly do you like to see that come back is it less than a year more than a year 24 months well right now it's 14 months uh you know a pro forma over the next five years you know as we bring investment in we're going to invest in the growth curve the payback will change based on different points in our in our customer customers or our country a company's future excuse me um but i would say right now it's 14 months which is acceptable because we're in high growth yeah so 14 months if you're spending seven grand uh that would mean what the the average the price point people are signing up for is something a little more than seven grand what like eight seventy five hundred on average people pay uh across from our tiniest clients for our biggest on average about about 500 a month yeah exactly yeah yeah so so basically what's happening there and this probably gets into brian's world is brian if each seat 75 bucks a month you're selling you know usually somewhere like eight nine ten person seats all the way i mean i'm sure you have enterprises where it's hundreds or thousands of seats right correct interesting okay very good um walk me through how you're landing these clients so what's the strategy is there a big team behind brian a lot of outbound what's it look like yes we've got a really creative model where adi both come from a background of selling info products in the personal development space of course andy's background is in tech companies as well but we worked together previously selling info products i've got a big personal development background and uh there's a company that we were doing really well closing about a million dollars a month in info sales personal development products so we decided to bring that to the sas model so we've created a webinar that's an educational basis webinar that helps people in the value of proposals you know some of the best practices and creating proposals that sell that automatically onboard them and get them as a paying client of ours from there some of those folks will sell self-select into an upsell funnel so we've got a team that's just helping us close the smaller deals and then i've got a small team reaching out to the big you know mid-market enterprise prospects as well yeah and on top of that we have uh you know a host of very large companies people like equifax principal financial um you know mcmillan publishing ortho clinical diagnostics securitas world leader the world leader in security a lot of major major corporations and because we do info sales selling to the very small businesses we can serve them it's an incredible product for small companies but also our focus when it comes to selling needs to be hand-hand selling needs to be the largest enterprise companies and really what is that that strategic partner selling change management within large enterprise corporations guys we're running out of time but quickly i'm curious i mean have you broken past kind of profitability at this point are you or right at breakeven how are you managing cash now we we continue to burn slightly ahead of our revenue i mean we're you know we're at negative event dial like you see a lot of bb sas companies um how negative i mean are you talking like 10 grand a month or 100 a month no i can't talk about the specifics of it um but but i'll say this that you know the typical b2b sas company is going to be five to seven percent negative ebitda because they're getting free cash by getting annual upfront deals our goal in 2019 is 80 of all deals will be annual upfront paid we want to leverage that cash as hard as we can so right now we're negative at ebitda but we're doing as strategically we can because we're growing fast enough to do it yeah i know you don't want to share how many customers you have can you share maybe a different metric which is maybe how many users you have actively using the platform i can't share that either but it's it's many many many many thousands okay of organizations or seats uh in terms of well seats and organizations um there's a lot more seats than organizations but but i really am not allowed to to share i'm not able to share the exact specifics yeah it's okay you just said thousands of so i mean we can assume something in the thousands at that point lots of thousands yeah that's good that's good no i mean look i the reason i ask that it helps me at least set a minimum right even if you're way bigger than this i mean i can take say 2 000 at 75 bucks a seat you're north of 150 a grand a month right i mean that's a minimum oh wait way up there yeah that's good i won't force you to go more specific because you said before you didn't want to so i won't push you there but that's what i'll put as a minimum i'll make it very clear it's a minimum all right what's growth rate look like year over year so we're we are now at 40 year-over-year uh we uh pretty excited about what we've done this year so 40 this year and uh uh pro forma we're looking uh very very strong for next year could actually be higher growth rate even though we're fairly mature in our growth yeah well i hope it's i hope it's faster if you're raising capital right that's that'll be expected all right guys let's wrap up with the famous five number one what's your favorite business book okay so i i've got to say scaling up uh it's a fantastic book we read it we love it we uh we think it's re for for a high growth entrepreneur for your listeners is probably the best book out there to help them in one little small package brian principles by ray dalio good i was going to throw the next one to you what's is there under the radar ceo that you're following or studying you know i i would have to say that that you know i really respect jeff bezos um i love to study what he does and how he does it uh and so i give him today brian this one's for you favorite online tool for building the companies maybe specifically the sales organization apollo apollo okay good uh andy back to you how many hours of sleep to get every night uh six okay and then up to six i was at five and a half but i'm working on getting more more hours good and andy you take us home here uh what's the situation married single kiddos i am married with a wonderful wife our anniversary 24th anniversary was three days ago we have three great young men 21 20 and 18. congratulations and how old are you andy i'm 56. 56 last question what do you wish your 20 year old self knew uh you know i've spent uh a lot of years having a lot of fun i was a pro basketball player i worked for nbc ge i was a television producer but i've always loved internet and what i will do as long as i possibly can i'll never retire it's growing small businesses doing what i do today i would have told myself at 20 get going with that now because it's uh it's what i love guys start sooner coming from andy and brian again join the client point team after a rebrand just about a year ago now they're serving thousands of seats they charge about 75 dollars per seat company launched in 2008 they're getting new customers using a webinar strategy and an upsell funnel uh they are doing about 40 year-over-year growth over the trailing 12 months burning capital right now call it negative five negative to negative 12 percent ebitda margins there 950 grand raised on a convertible note they're rolling that or letting it go through to about 1.5 million hoping to close in the next couple of months 25 people in california and remote about 15 logo churn per year no strong expansion strategy yet but they are developing that spending seven grand to get a new customer 14 month payback on a 35 000 lifetime value andy brian thanks for taking us to the top hey hey thank you hey listen one more thing if you've got another 10 seconds sure all right go ahead if anyone's curious about seeing our webinar it's finepoint.net create cache and of course it's not great for enterprise but this is if somebody's a small business owner then check it out we'll put that in the show notes for sure thanks guys all right thank you