How Superwall Reached $3.6M ARR with 2,000 Customers Powering 100M+ Paywall Views Monthly (Interview with Founder Jake Mor)

Intro and Company Overview

Nathan Latka

00:00Jake Mor started coding at 14. By 24, he'd sold his first company for four x net income. Today, his 12 person team at superwall powers over 100,000,000 paywall views every single month. 3,000 customers, $3,600,000 in revenue, processing $50,000,000 in customer revenue monthly. Here's the kicker. Customers start self serve at $200 a month, then graduate to more than $1,500 per month. Oh, and it all starts with just two lines of code. But here's what blew my mind.

00:30Jake's team has built over 4,000 custom paywalls and converts 5,000,000 new customers every month across their platform. From hacking HQ Trivia's API to raising $7,500,000, Jake reveals the exact playbook that's turning mobile apps into money machines. This is how you build a $3,600,000 revenue business with 12 people. Hey, folks. I'm here today with Jake Mor. He is the founder of superwall. And I said, you know what? I've gotta have this guy on because a couple episodes

00:54back to back, these folks that are building mobile apps, I'm asking them, how are you testing your paywalls? And they're all saying, we used to call it superwall. This is like Zach at Calii when he says he's running a 100 experiments with superwall, and they did 2,900,000 of revenue in April. We had another founder before that come on. So, Jake, thanks for making time for me. It sounds like you're growing fast. Appreciate it.

Jake Mor

01:13>> Thank thanks for having me. Yeah. It's always great to hear that our customers love what we're building.

Nathan Latka

01:17Did I do you justice or what did I miss? Tell us what superwall does.

What Superwall Does and the Two-Lines-of-Code Pitch

Jake Mor

01:22>> You did me you did me good. Superwall so superwall is the easiest way for mobile apps to add subscriptions so that they can start making money. So, you know, if you're just starting out, you can add superwall in two lines of code. So two lines of code, you gotta paywall, start, accepting payments. But then as you scale, we build the most advanced toolset to actually test different paywalls, target specific customers with offers. And, yeah, you know,

01:50>> this goes hand in hand with growing your business because I always like to say that there's like a pendulum swinging for all these mobile app founders between a growth mindset and a product mindset. And when the pendulum swings to the growth mindset, you're really helpless because when you're talking about you know the actual product, you want to build features. You don't want to work on like paywall experiments and stuff like that.

Nathan Latka

02:13That's right.

Jake Mor

02:14>> When you're thinking about growth, want to think about top of funnel. You don't want to think about this like middle of funnel sort of portion. So when the pendulum swings, you can up your ad spend. Usually, what's wrong is your paywall or your pricing because your audience changes as you scale up your ad spend. And just a little bit of efficiency could bring you from a point eight ROAS to a 1.2 ROAS, which lets you reinvest

02:36>> and possibly double your ad spend. So oftentimes only a 20% lift can completely change your growth curve because all that gets reinvested into scaling. And then, you know, you hit a plateau and the pendulum swings back to product. And when you're working on the product, you also don't wanna think about paywall. So we're really just here to support our customers'growth efforts from the from the beginning to the end.

Nathan Latka

02:59And and can I ask you sort of on average, what's the average customer paying you per month to use your technology?

Jake Mor

03:06>> Average or median? So the average is like

Nathan Latka

03:09Let's do well, that's exactly what I'm gonna get to because I'm gonna guess you have a massive range of our monthly ARPUs. But give me the give me just the average, just the pure average for a second.

Pricing: Average vs Median ARPU and Growth Plan Deals

Jake Mor

03:18>> Yeah. The average customer pays us around 1,000 to $1,500 per month. Okay. But our median is more like 2 to 300. So we skew heavily upward. I would say almost no one is paying us once 2,000 a month, which is funny because that's what the average is. So, like, yeah, there's a sold revenue, which for our biggest customers, like, know, Zach from CalAI, we bring them on to the growth plan.

Nathan Latka

03:44Okay.

Jake Mor

03:45>> We're people. We like to cut deals that are good for our customers. Mhmm. We just kinda size you up and we agree on pricing and that's how it works. It's the same price every month.

Nathan Latka

03:55That's super cool. So so you're it it's really a negotiate I mean, you're you're negotiating. It's not like, okay. Number of paywall experiments or number of downloads your app is getting. Or are there any usage based pricing axes you automatically sort of upgrade people against?

Custom Paywalls, Experiments, and the Four-Week Takeover

Jake Mor

04:09>> Yeah. I mean, if it's self serve, you can just come in on the startup plan. It's usage based, pay for what you what you use. Usually, huge customers, it doesn't scale well with them, and so they want a deal. And on top of that, we have so much industry knowledge. We run, you know, thousands of experiments per year. We've built we've built for our customers, you know, north of three to 4,000 paywalls. Yep. I I don't

04:33>> even know I've never heard of that such a thing. Don't know why anyone would even have done such a thing prior to this. But for people on the growth plan, we really like to take over their success in the first four weeks. So we we jump in there, figure out everything that's going wrong, and we add in everything that we know has a chance at being right. Yep. We always say we're not experts in success, but

04:55>> we've seen a lot of failed experiments. And, you know, what we can do is tell you which experiments probably won't work, but we don't know which ones will work. So all we do is come in for the first four weeks, run all these experiments for you, and then hopefully, you you see the power of the tool in that and stick around long term.

PLG to Enterprise: Balancing Self-Serve and High-Touch

Nathan Latka

05:15Yep. You you've cracked a really cool sort of code here because there's a lot of founders I talked to that say, Nathan, I'm stuck in an enterprise motion. I've got a massive sales team. They carry quotas. They're calling. Then I have other people that say, Nathan, like, I can't get people to upgrade above $10 a month. I'm stuck in a freemium PLG motion. Right? What what I just heard you basically say here is, look, we actually

05:32really are able to cater nicely to both because we know this is gonna be PLG bottoms up, no touch motion. And we know if they have success, they're gonna run more than 250 they're gonna hit more than 250 conversions per month. Like Zach told me on the interview last week that in April, they got between twenty and thirty thousand downloads and converted between 1020% of them into paid. Right? So, you know, you can do the math

05:54on that. Right? That's thousands of conversions. So to your point, you know they're gonna hit that that sort of usage limit, and then they get on a phone with you and you say, Zach, let's work out a deal.

Jake Mor

06:02>> Yep. Absolutely. I'm That's really interesting. Big, big believer. Also, you know, your bigger customers require more support. And no matter how big you are, excellent customer support is really hard to compete with because people just like you and it's a relationship and you build it. And, yeah, we believe that software is a service. So for our startup plan, it's it it you know, software as a service, but for our growth plan, like, is the service.

Nathan Latka

06:30Yeah. That's I love that. That's a great quote. Walk me through how you've set up the team because you also told me I imagine you probably have SaaS gross margins on your p and l, 80%. But you said you quote built three to four k paywalls, and I you probably build I imagine you build these custom in house, and then if they work, you add them to your template library. Walk me through the team and how

06:49you get all this done.

Jake Mor

06:50>> For sure. So people on self serve, they just use it like any other PLG led motion. We don't really do any marketing. People just hear about it through

Nathan Latka

06:59the user.

Jake Mor

07:00>> For the sold motion, two ways that people come into that. One is people graduating from the startup self serve plan. The other one is we just have like an SDR sort of approach to try to get people to book meetings. So once people come into that growth plan, again, the first four weeks, we basically say, We want you to give us the keys. We're going show you how to drive. After the four weeks are done, we

07:25>> give them the keys. What they don't know is we're learning how to drive their car. And the next time we see, you know, a nine eleven Turbo, we're going to know how to, you know, really, really push it to its limits. And so we then we have this in house team that basically come in for those first four weeks and they try all these things, they build all these things into the person's app to run those

07:50>> experiments. We build as a product org for that internal team.

Team Structure and Dogfooding Culture

Nathan Latka

07:55How many people are going I'm going I'm going to your LinkedIn account here. How many people are are building? Like, they're on that team. They build the custom stuff.

Jake Mor

08:01>> We're we're just 12 people.

Nathan Latka

08:03Oh, wow. Okay.

Jake Mor

08:04>> Yeah. Wow.

Nathan Latka

08:05Super efficient. Yeah.

Jake Mor

08:06>> Yeah. We like this guy Jonathan, you know, is our, you know, paywall designer. He's built thousands of these things. And he's our number one customer. Like we build the editor for him. Yeah. There's a huge benefit to dogfooding. Not only that, know, we almost require, forget allow, we almost require every single person on the team to have a mobile app that they're trying to grow. I actually hope that they're making more money from their app than

08:36>> they still want to work at superwall because they know the equity is worth more.

Jake's Background: Apps Since Age 14

Nathan Latka

08:40Yeah. That's super cool. How did you I mean, you're you're you're very articulate. I mean, is a super compelling vision and like high value product. Is this your first cut at a at a company or is this your second, third start? Give me more of your background.

Jake Mor

08:53>> Yeah. Sure. So I've been building apps since the the app store was open. I was like 14 when it came out.

Nathan Latka

08:59What year?

Jake Mor

09:03>> Maybe

09:05>> mid to late twenty early twenty ten, so like late, like 2009. Okay. 2010. I started out with Objective C. It was really difficult. Then I got into game development, I built a lot of games. I just thought it was the coolest thing seeing you know, I would be working on a game literally, like, in the middle of English class, and someone next to me would be playing the game. And I thought that was the coolest thing.

09:29>> That's a lot. And so, yeah, I've just been building software ever since. I've been completely hooked.

Nathan Latka

09:34That's a lot. Was that House Party?

Jake Mor

09:37>> House Party, I interned Okay. During Yeah. Okay. Then I went through Techstars with a company called ShopTurn. This was like reverse Postmates. We would return things for you instead of picking things up for you. But that failed. At around the same time, though, do you remember HQ Trivia?

Nathan Latka

09:53Yes. That was the hottest thing. Yeah.

HQ Trivia Hack, Majority Rules, and Fitness AI

Jake Mor

09:56>> So HQ kind of took off, and I hacked their API to figure to basically get the questions in real time. This is pre chat GPT. So I wrote an algorithm. I took a lot of, like, AI natural language processing classes in college. I took an algorithm to take the question and try to do a quick search on Google to parse the answer and predict what the answer would be.

Nathan Latka

10:16Oh, wild. Called Right?

10:18Like, super quick.

Jake Mor

10:19>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We called it h quack, and it went mega viral. Like, hundreds of thousands of people would play. Once we got everything right and we had a 100,000 people on, and a 100,000 people won. So it was like Wild. It was just ridiculous. And then they sent the shut cease you down?

Nathan Latka

10:33They have to shut you down.

Jake Mor

10:35>> Right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. They sent us cease and desist, put up an email form. I collected 200,000 emails of people who played HQ. So I launched a competitor called Majority Rules. Wow. And Majority Rules was was different because it's impossible to cheat because it's more like a survey says. So we ask and it's not a thing anymore.

Nathan Latka

10:56Yeah.

Jake Mor

10:56>> We would ask, like, what's the best chocolate bar? And you have to predict what the popular answer is. So you can't possibly cheat.

Nathan Latka

11:02Oh, there is no Google search.

Jake Mor

11:04>> Yeah. There's no search.

Nathan Latka

11:05Yeah. It's like Family Feud.

Jake Mor

11:07>> Yep. But that that died. We just gave away all our money. That we kinda had, like, a soft landing. We were we hired somewhere, but I left within three months. Wow. And then I started Fitness AI, which is a fitness app that used AI to build a workout for you. And then based on how you performed with that workout, it would update itself for next time.

Nathan Latka

11:30Oh, cool.

Jake Mor

11:31>> And this was hugely successful. I I bootstrapped it to 1,000,000 in revenue, and then, I raised some money, got into Y Combinator, and sold it when I got to around 4,000,000 in ARR. Cool.

Nathan Latka

11:41Can I ask how much you sold it for?

Jake Mor

11:44>> It was like like 3 to 4,000,000 range.

Nathan Latka

11:49Okay. So Okay. Interesting. So is that what is that what those Zaps sort of trade for? That's like one x, basically one x revenue?

Jake Mor

11:55>> It was four times EBITDA. I actually was sold Okay. I went before I sold it, I went to

12:03>> my investors and basically said I started Fitness I was very honest. I started Fitness Day to make money, not to start a huge brand or a huge VC backed business. And I tried to turn it into a VC backed business. That's why I tried to apply to YC. That's why, you know, I got in, I pitched it as this big thing. But I just found myself obsessing over the paywall and the onboarding and our ad spend.

12:26>> And like that had much more founder, you know, company fit for me. And so I just told my investors, like, is the company I wish that I started. I had a friend that was willing to start it with me. Brian, who's my co founder and, you know, just the best person in the world. So he so we yeah. We started it together. I told my investors, look, this is the company I wish I started. How about

12:51>> I give you, you know, the money back? I still had all of it.

Nathan Latka

12:55How much did you raise? I

Jake Mor

12:56>> had raised 1 and a half Okay. For fitness AI. And I said, if you want in on the new venture, by all means, same terms, but that's what I wanna do. And they all supported me, and I'll never forget.

Funding History: Seed, Rollover, and Unannounced Series A

Nathan Latka

13:07I'll never That's forget amazing. So you haven't raised anything at superwall except the rollover? Oh, you have raised at superwall?

13:13Okay. How much have you raised?

Jake Mor

13:15>> Yeah. We haven't announced anything.

Nathan Latka

13:17Okay.

Jake Mor

13:18>> So we did we did a $2,000,000 seed, and then we did

13:26>> oh, it was around 800 k that rolled over.

Nathan Latka

13:29Okay. Of the 1,500,000.

Jake Mor

13:30>> A total of around 7,500,000.

Nathan Latka

13:32Okay. Okay. So, I mean, can I do the math there? You you have 2,000,000 seed, 800 k rollover, so you raised something like 3 or 4,000,000 in a series a that's unannounced?

Jake Mor

13:39>> Yep. Yep.

Nathan Latka

13:40Okay. Interesting. Walk me through the tactics there. Do you see it as a weakness to announce it or it's just not important or it attracts the wrong kind of people?

Jake Mor

13:49>> It's just product focused. I don't know.

Nathan Latka

13:51Yeah. No. That's a good answer. That's not a bad answer.

Jake Mor

13:53>> You know, you wanna know why? It was on our to do list to announce it, and it just stayed in the to do list. And I don't know. I don't know.

Nathan Latka

13:57Yeah. I mean, I guess what's what are the Whatever reason. When you're when you're processing 700,000 okay. Conversions What's it now? Can you

Jake Mor

14:04>> give me the update? Monthly conversions?

Nathan Latka

14:07Yeah. Across all your customers.

14:10How fast can you write the DB Query?

Platform Scale: Paywall Views and Conversion Volume

Jake Mor

14:14>> I think it's like okay. Monthly paywall views is well over a 100,000,000.

Nathan Latka

14:18Wow. Okay.

Jake Mor

14:20>> Yeah. So I think we're in the millions of conversions.

Nathan Latka

14:23What's a good so if someone's watching this right now, you're the right person to ask this. What's a good conversion rate in in the from free to paid in a for mobile app?

Jake Mor

14:33>> I mean, it's a loaded question.

Nathan Latka

14:38Well, is Zach doing good or bad? $30,000 a month converting 10 to 20%?

Jake Mor

14:41>> Zach actually stellar.

14:42>> Stellar. 20% install to trial start, 30% whatever it is, is stellar. Okay. Anything below 10%, it depends. I mean, depends how good your UA is or, you know, it's more about how hard, how much effort are you putting into testing. If you're putting in good effort to testing and you're constantly beating yourself and you're doing well. But if you aren't putting anything into testing, then I guarantee your conversion rate's bad.

Nathan Latka

15:07Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so I I imagine you have a lot of there's probably a long tail of apps that, like, get no downloads, no one does anything, and there's a lot that, like, it's probably eighty, twenty rules. So when you say a 100,000,000 paywall views per month, I mean, are you doing over a million you must be doing over your all of your customers together must be converting more than a million new customers per month.

Jake Mor

15:25>> Oh, yeah.

15:26>> Well for that. Probably four or 5,000,000.

Nathan Latka

15:29Yeah. Interesting.

Jake Mor

15:31>> Yep. Four or 5,000,000 average, let's say $20

15:37>> annual let's say $20 per conversion. Yeah. Would say that we're referring like

15:43>> maybe 25 to 50,000,000 in revenue per month, like processing sort.

Nathan Latka

15:48Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's yeah. If you do 5,000,000 and these these folks in the mobile apps are selling I mean, Zach's app did an incredible job at moving me from basically a free trial that would convert me in three days and bill my card to $3.99 to then I hit the superwall experience where then I got spun a wheel, got a coupon called super. He didn't I joked him. I said, you didn't even let

16:07me just enjoy the three day free trial. You tried in the first session using superwall to immediately move me to a discounted annual plan and it worked. Right? It worked.

Jake Mor

16:15>> I guess. Yeah. I mean Yeah. I guess it did.

Nathan Latka

16:18Yeah. That's wild. Okay. Cool. So you're you're building the business. This this data is really interesting. I guess, are you comfortable sharing how many customers you have today? Total paid?

Revenue Confirmation: $3.6M ARR

Jake Mor

16:30>> I think we're in, like, the 2 to 3,000 range.

Nathan Latka

16:35Okay. If I take, like, that medium and multiply times that that average monthly thing you told me earlier, I think you said 1,700 a month was the average. I mean, can I multiply those to get your revenue?

Jake Mor

16:45>> Yeah. That's actually a good proof. Yeah. Our revenue is, like, three point we're at, like, 3.6 in ARR.

16:50>> Yeah. 3.6 in ARR.

Nathan Latka

16:51Okay. Okay. Cool. Oh, so $1,750 is not monthly. That's the average ACV.

Jake Mor

16:57>> 1,007. Well, let's see. 3,000 customers times

Nathan Latka

17:03Seventeen fifty would be over over a 5,000,000.

Jake Mor

17:08>> Maybe then. Oh, well, it's different. So the thing is like, as you scale up, the the pricing doesn't scale. So it's possible that the ACV is a little bit lower.

Nathan Latka

17:17Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. Because you have a huge range. You have people on free plans. You have people paying you whatever $10 a month.

Jake Mor

17:22>> Mhmm.

Nathan Latka

17:23Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. Okay. There's a lot of value here. What else Jake, what should I be asking you that just you're going, man, this this guy Nathan, he doesn't know our business that well. He's missing this one obvious thing that I really should talk about.

Apple vs Stripe: The In-App Purchase Ruling

Jake Mor

17:37>> I mean, the entire landscape is changing right now because Apple is forced to open up its in app purchase.

17:44>> And for the first time, developers are going to be given the choice to choose how they build their customers, whether that's with, you know, Apple's in app purchase that looks very much like an Apple Pay sheet. I'm sure you're familiar with that. Versus going through Stripe. Yep. And the reason that's so interesting is because

18:07>> I think develop like, the grass is always greener. So the developers are like, Apple's taking 30% of my revenue. That's 10 times more than what Stripe takes. That's egregious. But then what they don't realize is that Apple is a merchant of record. Mhmm. And Apple deals with, you know, you don't have to deal with chargebacks, you don't have to deal with disputes, you don't have to deal with taxes. You also don't have to deal with involuntary

18:29>> churn. Yeah. Because I have news for you. If your credit card expires, you're you're not gonna resubscribe to Calii unless you love it. Yeah. But if your credit card expires, you know, on your Apple accounts, your phone stops working.

Nathan Latka

18:42You're gonna that's a great one.

Jake Mor

18:44>> Yeah. So by our math, it's worth around 15%, but I think that there are gonna be tons of new merchant of records that are introduced to the market if if the ruling is here to stay. Yeah. And that's crazy because a huge you know, it could meant a completely new market overnight. That's like a venture scale. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

19:04Are you seeing like, you see what I pulled up here on my screen. People are complaining this warning's getting added to to folks that No.

Jake Mor

19:11>> That's not true.

Nathan Latka

19:12It's not true?

Jake Mor

19:13>> No. This is only in Europe because of the latest hearing. Apple is doing the bare minimum to comply, which is why the judge got so upset and basically I see.

Nathan Latka

19:25So this is not Apple trying to, like, hurt and penalize founders that are getting paid on Stripe versus the Apple ecosystem.

Jake Mor

19:32>> It is. So in Europe in Europe, they got away with putting this on the App Store as a warning sign. Oh. But it's really it's kind of playing dirty. I think it's Oh, a 100%. Felt. But in The US, they tried to pull some shit like this, and the judge basically said, like, you are not getting this. Like, it is open. Like, starting tomorrow. And they made it open. Like, so we have we now have customers

19:53>> that are using superwall to build with Stripe. Wild. And they're just getting through app review. Like, it's fine.

Nathan Latka

19:59That is wild. Yeah. Man, we live in we live in a new world. Okay. What's before we wrap up here, anything that you can share in terms of what you how are guys thinking about the next product release? You know, is AI impacting you at all?

AI and the Future of Mobile Apps

Jake Mor

20:12>> AI is, yeah, impacting us a ton. Basically, you know, the number of developers has just quintupled over the last few months, so that means more customers for us. Also means more competition. I think we're probably gonna enter a golden age for apps. I think what happened is similar to Netflix where you had a very limited number of shows that could be running at a time to unlimited shelf space. Mhmm. And so tons of shows started coming

20:39>> out, that means more competition, and the best shows in the world came out. So I think that's the case today too. Like so many new developers are gonna come build apps, compete with one another, and the consumer is just gonna get the most incredible apps that they've ever that they've ever had. So I think it's a bright future for consumer software.

Nathan Latka

20:56Mhmm. Are you are you really wanting to stay hyper focused on that mobile conversion experience? Do we ever see a superwall for b to b, you know, dashboards, you know, websites, you know, software company conversions?

Jake Mor

21:09>> Yeah. For sure.

Nathan Latka

21:10Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that gonna come this year, you think, or that's a longer term thing?

Demand Scoring: Personalized Pricing in Beta

Jake Mor

21:15>> I mean, I think it's longer term. What we're really focusing on now are two things. So one is leveraging the insane amount of data that we have to help our customers run better experiments. Mhmm. One of that is in beta now, public beta. It's called the art demand score.

Nathan Latka

21:31The art of demand?

Jake Mor

21:32>> No. No. No. It's called we assign each unique user a demand score. And that's us using proprietary signals to determine is this someone who subscribes to apps or not. Interesting. And so we're enabling people to give massive discounts to people who can't afford software and also basically telling you which customers you can charge more.

Nathan Latka

21:56Really? And dynamic pricing, basically.

Jake Mor

21:58>> Well, we call it personalized pricing.

Nathan Latka

22:00You built like a RagDB. Like, what's the data? What what what sample cohort? What dataset are you feeding us and training this thing on?

Jake Mor

22:07>> The hundreds of millions of paywall views per month that we're showing.

Nathan Latka

22:10So you from those Paywall views, you will know from the users that hit them if they've bought other apps?

Jake Mor

22:15>> We don't know for sure if they've purchased other apps. It's just in essence what we're training it to do. But we're looking at things like I mean, it's ridiculous. You can figure out first of all, like forget what storefronts they're in, what city are they in, what state are they in, what iPhone model are they on, what, you know, are they on WiFi or cellular? That's a good proxy for if they're home or not. What's the

22:39>> time of day? And you could, know, how many paywalls have they seen? If somebody has seen two paywalls, their demand is pretty low.

22:47>> We basically, it just takes the guesswork out of all of this testing. And it's really win win even for the consumer because what ends up happening is there are tons of people who just can't afford your software. And we're now enabling you to give a discount to those people without underselling yourself to everybody else. So it's maximizing both revenue and subscribers at the same time for our customers. And it's just been massive for the companies that

23:12>> have tried it. We're talking about like companies in the, you know, five to 10 in MRR range, just seeing 30% lifts in revenue overnight.

Nathan Latka

23:22Insane. Insane. Well, hey, Jake, wanna be respectful of your time. You got you got you you got paywalls to build. As we wrap up here, where can people find you online if they wanna follow-up?

Wrap-Up and Where to Find Jake

Jake Mor

23:32>> At Jake Mor on Twitter.

Nathan Latka

23:33I guess that's Or x. Guess Head x on Jake Mor. Guys, well, there you have it. He started off, get this, with objective c, ugh, in 2010. Fourteen fourteen years old. He's been through the ringer a couple times, eventually now building superwall. He's got over $3,000,000 of revenue serving 3,000 customers that all build mobile apps, and they use him to run over a 100,000,000 or or or power a 100,000,000 paywall views per month. He helps them

23:57convert, you know, call it three, four, 5,000,000 new customers every single month. You know, that's an average rate rate conversion rate. They're at 5%. Watch them closely. Very interesting stuff happening in the mobile app space. His prediction is it's the Wild West. A lot more apps, a lot more selection for everyone. That means a lot more paywalls for Jake to power. Jake, thanks for taking us to the top.

Jake Mor

24:14>> For sure. Thank you, Nathan.