Surfer Revenue, Valuation & Funding (2024)

[00:00] Hi, everyone. So, yeah, my name is Lucjan, and I'm CEO and Co Founder of Surfer, a B2B SaaS product that we grew to 15,000,000 ARR in around five years with less than $1,000,000 in of marketing spend in total. At Surfer, we are building an AI SEO content automation platform. That does all the heavy lifting around content ideation, writing optimization, and then performance measurement, so that you can focus on the stuff that matters, which is telling the [00:35] story to your customers and we are taking care of making sure they can find it. [00:43] Should I see that slide somewhere or not? Okay. So over the next twenty minutes, I'm going to show you some marketing tactics that for us [00:54] were a waste of time and we didn't attempt them at all or we just attempted them and wasted some time. There is some stuff that's usual, yet can be tricky to execute or it's kind of like underrated. So I'm going to talk about pricing a bit, about affiliate marketing, about building a community. And finally, we have some weird cheat tactics that kicked us. We launched a Chrome extension to 500 k with the active users. We did [01:27] a partnership with Jasper. And then I'll share one simple trick how to make your G2 reviews go through the roof. So, these are our revenue growth. We had like almost $1,000,000 in 2019, and, last year, we closed at around 15. And most of the tactics I'll tell I'll talk about today will be applicable across all of this range. [01:59] Okay. But [02:03] if it's not, then I will, of course, let you know. So, yeah, starting with tactics that can be a waste of time. And the first one, just I want to share the recent experiment that we did on like, generic growth tactics, which, I use the term for like, kinda like whether you are using a freemium model, free trial, demo, or in general, how do you convert your customers? Here's the recent experiment that we launched like a [02:30] month ago. So, on the chart you see like in general conversion rate from sign up user. So basically after they put an email and password, sign up, and then they have to basically choose the plan. And then take out the credit card and pay. So this is the conversion up until before the experiment. We where we didn't have any kind of free trial. So whenever you wanted to try Surfer, you had to pay the money upfront. [02:59] So it's roughly 15%. And then we thought, yeah, maybe it's a good idea to let people try Surfer without paying upfront, $59, just for like a credit card details, we'll charge them after seven days. That's probably going to make the conversion much higher. And it didn't actually work like that. The conversion rate almost didn't move. And that really is a conversion rate not to the like the payment after you activate the trial, but just to the [03:32] trial. So, in general, it seems like people at least for our customers, it's kind of the same thing to just take $59 out of the pocket versus [03:46] like if we charge them after seven days, the conversion rate is the same. But the idea here is really if you are just starting or if you are just below $10,000,000 ARR probably, you should focus on building a shut up and take my money product. So focus on getting those early adopters, they will basically either buy your product or not. They don't care about, you know, trials, freemium. If they believe in your value proposition, they [04:20] will pay for your product. If they don't, it's not a problem of bad marketing or or conversion rate optimization, but rather a product problem. [04:34] Yeah. So, build a shut up shut up and take my money product and just charge your damn customers upfront, ideally, annually. [04:45] Another one is SEO and why the hell is CEO of an SEO product company telling you that SEO can be a waste of time? Well, it was for us, but we were in quite unique position. So, just bear with me. Here's a decision making chart that you can use to tell if you should do SEO. Why we didn't do that? Because we were bootstrapping. So we were kind of like short on money. [05:12] Our niche was highly competitive. So we were to compete with Ahrefs, Semrush, HubSpot, big domains, big players. So if that's the case, you will need to wait for results for a long time like a year or so, and you'll need to invest a lot of money. And if you are bootstrapping, you don't have this money. And ideally, you get your cash flowing from the get go to just be able to invest more on tactics that will [05:43] compound over time. So, yeah, if you are profitable [05:51] over $1,000,000 ARR, you do invest in SEO. So we just waited for for some time. If you if you're not bootstrapped, if you have highly competitive niche, so probably have to ask your investors, are they willing to wait for results? And if they don't, you change your investors because you know, it's a long term game. It's always a long term game. And the best marketing tactics compound over time. So, if you just focus on on stuff [06:21] that's taking giving you immediate effect or are easily measurable, then it's not going to work. [06:31] So offline conferences. Many people though we did the same, like, yeah, Web Summit. Let's go to Web Summit. It's so many people. Right? So many potential customers will talk to, you know, different people, they will buy our product. Well, it doesn't work like that. Because out of those thousands of of people on the conference, there was just a little just little be really interested in your product, be part of your ideal customer profile. And then out of [07:00] those, you'll be able to talk to like, I don't know, 50, and then there's just one person that will buy or ideally, maybe it's not even one person. So don't go to to like big conferences, trying to sell your product if you're just getting started. What to do instead? Go for a local meetup. You will be able to form much more intimate relationship with your customers, early adopters. It will compound over time as well much better. [07:28] Or, we also did, one big conference. And it makes sense as long as it targets your ICP, precisely like we went to the conference for SEO professionals, decision makers about, you know, buying software and that that can work. But don't go to like generic, website or SaaStock conferences. [07:55] So, the the usual stuff, pricing. How many of you experimented, changing your pricing over the last last six months? Twenty, [08:05] thirty, 40%. That's that's nice, but everyone should do that really. Because, it's it's a it's a huge huge growth lever for for any SaaS company. So here is the real world pricing survey outlined that we just launched for our new product. And the idea is to launch such a survey before you start working on on a product and not after or never. Because it's it will make you much easier to invest your time later on, much [08:40] more confident whether you are building the right thing. And basically, it will put put you in the right frame of mind. How to frame your value proposition? To ask people like how much money are you willing to spend on it? So get much more precise description of your what you are building. And then the artifacts from that, it's like presentation over 50 slides around different, you know, data points. But this is one of the most interesting [09:08] one. [09:11] Which shows you like in our case, the market penetration maximizing maximizing price was like $15 per article. [09:23] But then, we could charge much more to maximize the revenue. Much much less people will buy like 10%, but the revenue will go go up. So, we'll have it will be much easier for you to decide like how how how you should price the product that you're launching. And actually like besides besides conducting the willingness to pay research willingness to pay research before creating a new product, you should start pricing higher and not like lower than [09:56] your competitors. Because at the beginning, we are looking for early adopters, they will have higher willingness to pay. So, you can just capitalize on this and just get some money to get started. It's it's it's like if you are bootstrapping, you should be looking, for for exactly that. Don't use discounts. Don't do lifetime deals. [10:22] Next to affiliate affiliate marketing. So here is the slide is actually wrong because it includes Jasper partnership, but cut it like in half and you'll you'll have an idea how much revenue does affiliate partnership along affiliate marketing brings us. So roughly like million and 0.5 for 2022. And it's a it's a nice channel. People are generally afraid of spending like 30% commission fee. Like someone will get 30% lifetime for my customers. That's a lot. But if [11:01] you price higher, you have you'll have some leeway to do that. So that's one. And the actual commission is lower. Because if you if you chase like big affiliates, then you'll get brand awareness, because, you know, they will show it to their community, spread the word. So, brand awareness is like you cannot measure that. Affiliate links are often often skipped as well. So, [11:33] community building. Like, there's one tip I can share that the the the biggest one is that be authentic, be real, be memorable. Like, this is our how to surf a weekly walkthrough with Mihaw, our our CPO, and like, you cannot not memorize this guy. Right? So, it's like so so sad to see all those b to b startups, SaaS products have this boring marketing, like, just like anyone else. Nothing really, you know. [12:08] You don't have to necessarily do that. Someone. Right? Be someone. Be where your customers are. Not like launch Slack channel because it's convenient for you. If your customers hanging hang around Facebook, do the Facebook group. You need to test where is the the best where is the best for your for your customers. [12:33] And weird shit tactics. So, Chrome extension. We saw an opportunity. Keywords everywhere was, like a leading Chrome extension for, seeing basically seeing search search volume data directing Google. And one time they said it's going you know. You're going to have to pay for this. And we had we saw like huge backlash on Facebook like why do we have to pay for this? We don't want to pay. It was like $1 a week. But still it made [13:01] difference to to to their customers. They had like, I don't know, 500k or so users and we're like, we have this data. We can build this. So, we did. In two weeks, we created Keyword Surfer, and we saw like articles, like this. It looks like keywords everywhere, but not completely. So we had a lot of PR from the get go. We [13:27] reached 65,000 users like potentially interested in a product like seeing Surfer logo every time they open Google. That's that was powerful for brand awareness. Right now, it's like 500k users. And it's one of the reasons, why we are so, efficient, with our marketing spend. The enabler was that we had to make decisions decision about doing this immediately, fast, and execute fast. And just, use the opportunity that we that we saw. So, you cannot replicate that [14:02] probably. But you can replicate the decision making process, about looking for opportunity and executing as fast as you can. It doesn't bring a lot of direct conversions, but brand awareness is is there. Jasper partnership, same story. We met we met in the evening, like, in April with the CEO of of of Jasper because they saw, like, they saw a lot of customers asking for Surfer integration. We saw a lot of customers asking for Jasper integration. So [14:37] we're like, yeah, let's do it. Twenty eight hours later, this ready made product, like, you could open Jasper, sign up with Surfer account, and boom, you saw all of our guidelines directly there. And it's crazy. Because 20% of our revenue is brought by Jasper. Brand awareness skyrockets. And so on. But it's kind of a threat if if you depend so much on one customer acquisition channel. Question? So people are using Jasper to write the article and [15:08] then your software is telling you what keywords Exactly. Yes. That's us. [15:18] Yes. Yes. So in Jasper, you can enable Surfer integration, and you'll see our guidelines how to write the content. Yes. So that it runs. [15:30] 30% commission, you know, it's it's freezing, but, it's worth it. [15:38] Is that my current commission? Yeah. Lifetime. Lifetime. [15:46] How to make your reviews on G2 go like [15:52] You see, like, between, like, February 2021 to June, we went from 20 to 120. Keyword Surfer reviews from 128 to 200 in in a month. What happened? One simple trick. Ask your customers a favor in exchange for a credit in your product. Like, get server certified, two content editor credits. Write a G2 review, one content editor credit, and and so on and so forth. You can figure out a lot of growth tactics around this [16:26] framework, and it's working wonders. [16:32] Your system works with credits? Yes, we have usage based. The thing is people are not using those credits anyway, because they have so so big limits, are using like 20% limits. They still do it. I don't know why. And the the thing is, if you ask them to write a G2 review, they won't do like one star, because they would feel bad about it. So, they either leave a good review or no. No review at all. [16:56] So it's great. People will do anything in exchange for free credits if your product is product is right. Yeah. [17:15] No. No. Jasper does this tactic as well. So, the great stuff was enabled by execution, speed of execution and creativity. You just wait for opportunity and jump on it and execute as fast as you can. And here's a really quick framework how you can figure out whether to invest in particular marketing tactics at any given revenue level. So if you are just getting started, you need immediate effect because you need the cash flow to get flowing. [17:45] You need to be cost and time effective because, of course, you don't have any of those. But you also need a compounding or profound effect because if you are willing to invest in tactics that will bring your, I know, conversion 20%, if you have like 100 customers, that's not going to work. That's not how you build a big company. You need 10x. 10x stuff. Or stuff that will compound over time. If you're growing bigger, you can, [18:16] you know, you can just do around effect and cost time effectiveness because you can invest over a longer time. You don't need this immediacy. And then, if you have 1,000,000 and above, you can just invest in stuff that's compounding, like brand awareness, or if they if it has a a big effect also. So, it's cost doesn't matter anymore. So, I showed you some tactics as well. Waste of time, usual trigger, underrated, and some weird shit stuff. [18:53] And thank you very much. Good luck, and have fun.

[00:00] Hello, friends and family. It's quite a big audience right now, but I hope I can delight you with this presentation. So, what I will be showing you is next twenty minutes, I will go through the partnership types you can have as a SaaS company. I will show you how to do the evaluation because wrong partnership can hurt you quite badly as well and I will back up my words with some results. So let's get it started. [00:36] Does it work? Yes, it does. So this is our revenue chart. I marked two spots with these purple arrows. The first arrow is representing when we kicked off first type of partnerships, which is affiliate marketing and the second one is the biggest integration we did so far. So, let's start with these types. So, we've got affiliate marketers, you can consider it, is it really a partnership? But in fact it is, but it is a partnership between [01:10] SaaS company and a person. The person has the audience, the person has a following and he is willing to monetize the following by reviewing your product. And it is great to start with it at the very beginning, because the setup is really easy and it doesn't cost you anything really. It's like $100 for a software that will track commissions and that's it. The only thing you have to do is to provide them competing offer and the [01:40] product that they will be proud of reviewing. And then, we have the integrations that will have the high impact on your revenue, but they will require a lot of work in terms of technical marketing and stuff. So, it's really good idea to evaluate before you really get into any integration and then, I will show you the speedrunner. So, how we integrated the best integration we had so far within twenty eight hours. So affiliates, they are willing [02:14] to earn money through their audience, so you need a compelling offer for them. We started with paying 30% recurring commission. It seems like a lot, isn't it? Like from every $100 subscription, we are paying $30 every month. But if you consider that not everyone is really following the affiliate links, you got a lot of press, you got a lot of reviews, but not every single person is using the affiliate link. [02:49] You can consider impact of affiliate marketing two times bigger than the cost it looks like. So in fact, it's 15% to 20% of revenue, so the commission gets basically lower. And this is how we scaled up the program. Compelling offer, quality product. And as you can see right now, 3,000 affiliate marketers. So we partner with 3,000 affiliate marketers. A single half time person is managing this whole process. So it's really a good ROI in here. I [03:26] will show you on the chart how much money it makes. But what about the integrations as integrations have way bigger impact? So when the founders meet, you get like this first impression of, let's do it, we've got this excitement at the very beginning, but it quickly changes into more and more friction that hurts it. So then the techie meets with the other guy and they are like, okay, how are we going to do it? Are we [03:58] going to create spaghetti in the code, but get it delivered quickly? Or we will do it the right way, but we will be late to the market? So the first friction shows up. Then we got this moment of product managers or like even yourself, you are like, I had the plans, but now the plans have changed. And it's always like, you got this new shiny object and you feel like, okay, let's dump everything and start pursuing [04:25] this new goal. So another friction with your previous plans shows up. And then on top of that, you got some billing issues, like all the money should go through our company and you are like, okay, it's not the best solution, but maybe I can take it. And on top of that, you get the terms from potentially way bigger company that can force you to do something like, I don't know, you have to take responsibility for whatever, [04:54] whatever. And you are like, okay, we've done so much work in this integration that it's really a bad idea to turn it down or we will sacrifice that work and turn it down or we will take it on the terms that are not worth going for. So it's really a struggle. But it doesn't have to be this way. There is a way to get the win win situation [05:21] with SaaS partnerships if you can keep it simple. And affiliate marketing is a great help in here because you can avoid this is actually a good tip, you can remember this one. You can leave behind all of these billing issues, bundling, pricing and stuff, if you have the affiliate setup already done. Because instead of selling a bundle, you can let them sell your tool and you can sell their tool and the only connection between it is [05:57] you are invoicing them for the commission, they are invoicing you for the commission and that's it. It's super simple and it leaves behind all the hassle. And I will, of course, tell you more about the same goals of the company, the same size, the same way of work, but I will leave it for a little bit later. I still have quite some time. So this is us, me, Lucian, Lucian is sitting here and we are all [06:24] excited. This is the very first moment when we are meeting another Founder, it's the Founder of Jasper, Dave Roganmosser, and we are like, okay, let's do the integration. And you know what? We skipped all the evaluation process for one reason. The reason was that our customers asked us to integrate with Jasper and Jasper customers asked them to integrate with surfer. So we skipped the evaluation process and boom. Twenty eight hours later, we've managed to introduce the [06:59] integration to the market that was really doing great. People were really crazy about it. But if you have a ton of emails from prospects or if you are trying to get some partnerships and you don't know who to mail, who to contact, you need evaluation. Because without the evaluation, you'll most likely get a failure and I've got a bunch of failures in the next slide. [07:29] We've did like 20 integrations and only one is really doing great. That's why the evaluation is a good idea and we will evaluate these potential partnerships in terms of how they work and what's the product. So we will try to evaluate the company and we will try to evaluate the product. And of course, you can get this thing, the SaaS partnership checklist. It's available. I don't have the URL, but I will tell you it's surferseo.comsaasopen and [08:07] you will be able to download the PDF that consists of these questions. You don't have to take any photos, just download there, surferseo.com/saasopen. So the business. Who they are and how they work? Who they are is basically about the size of the company, their audience, who do they serve. Because if you have a situation when you are much smaller than the potential partner, you will have issues with negotiation. If they are much smaller, you can basically [08:43] use the position of strength in the negotiation and it's not going to work really well. And how do they work is about the legal, is about dev team agility, it's about the marketing. If they are really willing to pick up what you have to say, what you have to offer. [09:07] And if they are not agile, if they are legal heavy, while you want to do it quickly, it's not going to work. But it's not about looking for specific answers, there are no good or bad answers, it's about finding a match. So if you do the same, if you are both legal heavy, that's okay, it will work. If you are both agile, kind of yellow development, that's also fine. But if there is like a difference in [09:33] any of these areas, you will be frustrated like crazy. And when it comes to the product, we've got two areas of evaluation of the product. First is the synergy. So if these products are within the same process, so like for example, you've got, I don't know, email marketing process. And one part is to create the email and the other part is to send the email. And if one company supports creation of the email and the other [10:05] company supports sending of the emails, we've got the perfect synergy and you can go for that potential partnership. And the other area is the cost. The cost is not only about the dev team, but it is also about marketing, it's about the support and you have to really check whether there won't be too much hassle in creating landing pages, in creating instructions for the support and so on, just so you are secured and your current customers [10:37] are not hurt with this integration. And the pricing. Pricing is also really important, and it can turn down the whole integration. Even though it was a perfect fit, the pricing itself can turn it down. And the most important part of this is the type of [10:56] the billing model. Like if they are one time subscription, lifetime deal, whatever, and you are SaaS, their customers are not ready for paying monthly. If you are $100 and the company starts at $20 their customers are not prepared to spend $100 every month on a SaaS product. And even though there is a big match in all of the other questions, this itself can ruin your partnership and I got the direct example of that behavior. So let's [11:33] jump to the results because results is something that can prove I'm talking real deal or not. So I've got a few examples of the failures, I've got some key aspects of why it worked and got some revenue numbers. The first one, the first failure, I think it is also the first integration we ever did. It's a writer access, it's company that produces content, and we are an SEO tool that optimizes the content. But it turned out [12:04] that their founders were really talking great. They were like speakers. They convinced us it will be a good idea, and we went for it without testing. It turned out that their audience is not willing to buy server. Well, that simple. Another one, SEMrush. Huge company. Maybe you've heard. Actually, SEMrush is one of the sponsors of this conference, has opened, I think. So SEMrush is a huge, huge company. And we didn't have aligned goals. Like, they wanted [12:39] to integrate another SEO tool while we wanted to make this integration really meaningful for our users. And they were like, okay, just check another integration, and we were on opposite side. And it turned out that the legal obstacles that the terms they offered, we had everything ready, can tell you. The design was done, the product was done, everything was ready and we had to turn it down just because the terms and the legal stuff, we couldn't [13:09] accept it. And the last failure is the RightSonic. RightSonic is exactly the same tool as Jasper that is crazy good for us, but we are misaligned in terms of the pricing. Writesonic is a cheap alternative, while Jasper is leading in the industry. Jasper costs similar amount as surfer, while Writesonic is a few times cheaper. And well, they bring the leads, they got the trial and no conversion. So well, it didn't work because of the pricing. So [13:44] let's take a look again at this chart. And right now, I'll explain you how the skyrocket kind of moment, the second purple arrow happens. So the key factors. The key factors of the success is that when you have the same goals as the company as you partner with. If you have a simple setup, so there's no really hassle of figuring out all the stuff besides product. The stuff besides product should be that small, really small. And [14:15] of course, competing over an interested audience, these are another foundations of making this partnership work. Marketing results, ton of courses, ton of YouTube videos, people were starting to review the whole process with combination of server and Jasper all over the YouTube and the SERP domination. This is another crazy thing because out of these 3,000 affiliates, every single one created surferseo review targeting keyword surferseo review, which made us really dominate the SERPs with the message that we [14:55] wanted because they are our affiliate. So they are talking our language, they are explaining surfer, so their users will buy it because they have commissions. So every single review you will find, well, obviously will be positive and we didn't do anything to make it happen. They did it. So the commission paid off. We not only didn't have to do any marketing, but it was really like a snowball effect. Every new review showed up like crazy. We [15:25] didn't have to incentivize it at all. So partnerships, revenue. I will stand here and look by myself as well because these charts are pretty inspiring. As you can see, 3,500,000 last year. It was over 30% of our revenue in total at surfer. And it was all brought only by commissions that were tracked. So not I'm not counting what I don't know, right? But quite significant amount of people skip these links. So 30% of revenue of surfer [16:02] generated through partnerships. So well, it feels like it was worth it, not only from the integration with Jasper, but also with the other affiliates that gave us a huge boost. Not only with sales, but with authority. We were like new on the market, no one knows us, and then boom. One, two, three, five, 10, 500 influencers in the industry, people who are running courses and so on, they started to talk about server. They had incentive, of [16:35] course, percent recurring commission, but who cares? It's still much cheaper than asking them for doing promotional materials. So it's definitely a good idea for any, well, any bootstrap SaaS company at the very beginning to start tapping into someone else's authority, someone else's audience. You don't have the audience, you don't have the authority, they have both. Audience and authority to sell to that audience. So let's summarize it. I showed you the types, you start with the affiliates [17:07] ideally, then move to something more serious like partnership integration with another product. Of course, the evaluation and I will recall the URL, it's surferseo.com/saasopen and you will get all of these questions. Just ask honestly, ask yourself these questions and you will find out, is it a good idea to pursue that integration or it is better to skip and use another one? And then the results, they speak for itself. So, thank you.

Introduction hello everyone my guest today today is michelle suskey he's a digital marketer with a love for seo he co-founded surfer that's surfersio.com and has been evangelizing the product and data driven approach to optimization ever since he's trained hundreds of seo folks copywriters and marketers on on-page seo writing and content marketing strategies you ready to take the top excuse me are you ready to take it to the top yeah of course okay let's get started so tell us surfer seo i mean what is it this is like an ahrefs tool or semrush or what oh no no no it's absolutely different approach like these tools are focused more on keyword research and on backlinks analysis while we are more like a data-driven tool that gathers a lot of information from pages that are ranking the top 10 to tell you whether you are missing something or overusing when it comes to content and these days we are drifting more into let's say content intelligence term that will be more about uh producing content that will satisfy both parties google algorithm and the end user so more of like a clear scope competitor oh yes you hit the nailing ahead okay got it cool that helps my head get in the right spot so now i know exactly what you guys do so so if someone just hired an intern that's writing content for their site the intern doesn't know seo they can use your tool to make sure they write the article in a way that's going to rank really well yeah absolutely that's all about it okay what are customers paying on average to use your technology um it's between 29 and 199 but the pricing we currently have is well we figured it out like a couple of years ago like when we started 2017-18 and it hasn't changed much so in general this this this pricing model we have is really not user friendly and doesn't help us monetize and doesn't help users to get the best plan for themselves so yeah uh in general there is a variate variety of plans however uh they're not you know too flexible and Monthly recurring revenue amiha what was monthly recurring revenue last month uh let me check precisely oh we just hit 250.4 congrats so 250 000 a month in revenue yeah and how many customers Currently serving 4000 customers it's about four thousand customers four thousand when did you launch the business uh we started the beta version in 2017 and it was released absolutely for free and it took us almost a year from the beta release to get the first client paying um Bootstrapped and since then we've been well we are bootstrap company so uh that was pretty a struggle at the beginning to uh figure the budget out and yeah until we've become profitable it took us a year and a half maybe Profits and so when you say profiling of 250 if you make 250 000 a month how much will go to the bottom minus profits um the yeah so we try to spend no more than 40 percent uh of uh the recurring revenue so we have this pillow uh that will help us uh through hard times when they come because obviously you have to be prepared when you scale up like right now we have 30 people and uh the biggest chunk of our spend is on salaries as we are trying to build only a player's team and so on so we pay them well and this is the biggest uh enough element of our payroll so yeah we are just building a massive pillow to you know be safe 40 profits on 250 000 per month is about a hundred thousand dollars a month in free cash flow going into your bank account every month to build that pillow is that about right yeah and you're bootstrapped just to be clear yeah that's right i love that congratulations yeah that was a tough decision for us we almost got uh into the vc carousel we were we were that close uh all the papers were lying on the on the desk but they just uh delayed uh the cash and there was like you have to start you have to move uh to another city where we have a headquarters so we did and we started in in september 2018 i mean the business for real because for a year it was a side project and before it was internal tool for the agency but yeah it was september and we we had a deal and they just didn't come with cash uh on the date that we agreed and in the meantime how much how much cash should they commit oh that was like it's confidential i think so well but it didn't be a number but it didn't happen right and you don't have to name the investor how much cash did they where they say they were going to give you uh it was six figures okay and and did you you actually signed a term sheet and or a safe whatever you were raising on yeah yeah we we had a term sheet but in the end uh it wasn't uh finalized just because we didn't receive the money and in the meantime we started selling early access subscriptions that gave us this initial boost of cash and that actually saved us from going on to the you know this vc world when you have to pump pump pump and then you know get higher revenue how much how much revenue did the agency do before you launched surfer seo so in 2016 what was agency revenue oh i don't know because i was the head of seo of the agency so i'm not the owner of the agency that it was born i would i was head of seo and the project was started by ceo of the agency me and my brother uh as a cto so there were two seos and one uh technical person um i'm not sure what was the revenue i i never known but we've been hiring um 12 people i think in total uh for the agency and uh working with 200 clients but well just be clear who who owns who owns server seo today do you own the equity yeah of course i'm i'm one of the founders so you're not the bureau of stakeholders but you your brother and then the ceo of the agency yeah slovak tchaikovsky i see when you and your brother put your equity together is at least 50 or no you guys are minority holders um quite a bit uh some people uh joined us to the to the equity as well do i have a majority with my brother no okay so under 50 between you two okay interesting but this is a great model because i imagine i mean did you get your first customers from the agency basically um yeah we had some contacts uh from the agency business uh because seo community in poland is not that big so almost everyone knows each other so our first clients uh were from poland uh however we had the first early access sign up from the us but the person immediately asked for a refund so that's kind of funny but other than that at the beginning we we had only clients from poland so how did you get your first hundred customers hmm there was 20 customers on early access plans so we secured a deal that they will have uh like better deal than anywhere in the future how'd you get them though um word of mouth no come on you can't have they don't just i don't just find a brand new startup and start paying you have to be intentional about how they get there we were in beta free beta for a year so they they have known us uh but how they how they find the beta um let's say we start in poland we released the beta on the seo conference there was a presentation which one data driven sem krk is from krakow uh krakow let's say yeah so that was pretty one of the biggest seo conferences in poland uh like 300-ish people uh scm krk conference yes uh that was a bit of a bit of lunch and since then uh people started using it obviously i was commenting uh on facebook groups and so on uh but actually i got a ban for self-promotion on one of the biggest seo groups seo signals lab seo signals lab that was fun and through that ban i got known uh stephen kang who is the uh the owner of that group and it turned out to be a great relationship between each other he helped me a lot with promoting the brand because after that that was actually crucial to the business at this early stage because after that ban i just reached out to him and how many people were in his group uh at the moment is nineteen thousand one nine thousand ninety thousand nine zero and nine zero yeah uh at the time it was like fifty thousand i think or maybe forty thousand how do you convince him to promote the product uh well he calls me a brown noser at some point uh when it when it comes to this uh release from the from the cage of being banned on the group but he he literally turned turned to me and say hey maybe do you want to do a pick his brain session which is something like ask me anything session and i received like over 100 questions and obviously promote a surfer there which caught a lot of eyes looking at us and another cool moment regarding that group was that our competitor cora page optimizer pro they were both founded in the us so they were well known in their communities and then we popped up as their co competitor that's who is correct can you spell it c-o-r-a okay like it's from correlation yep um and p-o-p page optimizer pro yep so so they build uh some sort of uh movement in seo that you not only have to acquire backlinks but you can also optimize your pages to help google understand better what you are about what are the missing elements uh and so on on the lower budget because on-page is the area audio control miho we've got to move forward because uh it's a quick show we only have five minutes left here so i want to get more of your story here right so i understand the first hundred customers how are you getting customers today you have four thousand still not so many ads uh i would say it's really minor but the biggest chunk is affiliate uh marketing we have established a decent affiliate program that drives uh 20 maybe 30 maybe 40 percent uh of the sales it's 30 recurring commission so they are really into uh selling our product so first it works and secondly they get big chunk of the the subscription uh we charge so uh it's like really a surf but perpetuating machine uh when it comes to sales and obviously this way we got a lot of brand ambassadors how much do you pay out to how much do you pay out to affiliates every month in their recurring fee oh i have to check but i will i will check it in a few moments so give me another question yeah no problem so so 30 rpoo 4 000 customers you're bootstrapped profitable 30 people on the team how many engineers uh 12 12 engineers and any sales how many on the sales team no no sales team oh yeah that's a good moment i'm looking for a super professional sales head of sales so yeah no sales and i would love to start it and revenue generated in okay monthly recurring revenue generated by the affiliates is roughly 25k so i had uh a little bit missed so it's like a ten percent so sorry do you that's that's what you're paying out to affiliates that's their commission or that's the revenue they've driven yeah yeah that's the commission got it so they have they make up about 80 000 monthly in revenue right now customers from affiliates as far as i'm reading these charts correctly yes yep yep wow that's okay so about 40 of your current revenue 250 000 per month sorry not 40. about 30 has been driven by affiliates over time those affiliates represent about 80 000 a month in your current revenue and you pay them out about 25 000 per month in commissions for that revenue if yeah if i if i read it correctly yes but well monthly recurring revenue 25k or maybe this is how much they generate so a third of that is how much we pay so right slightly less than that than 10k usd we pay every month yeah that's correct 10 yeah you can say eight 8 000 us dollars we pay out to the so they make up 25k only ten percent your revenue comes from affiliates yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah how many affiliates how many affiliates make at least a dollar from you each month um let's see in total we have oh gosh 400 affiliates that make at least a dollar in in total in our program but the amount of people that make at least a dollar uh is roughly a hundred okay interesting so affiliates are your main channel then right now anything else yeah uh engineering as marketing this is great uh so we released a free seo tool chrome extension uh that is used by over 200 250 000 people every day and it drives a lot of attention you can check it out keyword server it's a chrome extension uh that will tell you about search volume and we'll do some keyword research for you within the search results so it's like quickly how do you get people how do you get people from using your free chrome extension to actually hitting the paywall into a paid plan so there was super popular keywords everywhere extension that become paid and in a two weeks from that point we released our to fill the gap of a free extension that shows the search volume of a keyword so we just hit uh in the right moment with our engineering resources but how do you take 250 000 free users and convert them to like at least show them your paid plan do you get their email address and you email market to them no no no it's absolutely free and the only uh conversion we get from them is a tiny little button that it is powered by servers so if you want more data check it out so it's not like you know aggressive you're doing three million a year today or twenty two hundred thousand dollars a month how much were you doing a month a year ago um the spike is pretty pretty big a year ago it was uh here slightly less than 100 it was 82 000 in december 2019 wow that's an incredible growth right yeah it was like uh sometimes it was even 20 month to month and we have never experienced a month that was uh slowly slower growing than a month before so growth is growing what would you value the company at today um it's 100 times the monthly recurring revenue am i right i'm not a specialist uh whether it's your personal just you personally what would you buy oh you can't buy it well that was my question what would you what would you value it at today i have no clue i have no clue it would it should be like really irrational amount uh for us to sell it because it's more like uh not it's not only making money but it's rather a lifestyle do you pay dividends out when it makes money no no no no no we are in investing everything to hire more good quality so how do you how do you get rich if if you can only wait for an exit but you never want to sell like how do you get rich if there's no dividends from cash flow well the opportunity will come for sure but obviously we pay ourselves as a salary for a year we have been not paying a salary but now we do and it's quite all right so it's fine to keep on building it keep on growing and hiring more people last few questions churn monthly churn what's that quite high actually but there is a problem with calculating the turn in stripe and we have no great metrics to be honest because we have a paid trial which is one us dollar per week and the this is really easy to enter however it's counted into the churn so uh those values are well i don't know it's hard to measure let me ask you a different question how much do Customer acquisition cost you pay to acquire a new customer that pays you 30 bucks a month i have no clue do you spend money do you spend money on ads uh a little bit and the roi is more or less 10x 10x calculated against what like what's your payback period typically like ltv is like 800 dollars i think yeah it is 800 in ltv and if you calculate an roi of an ad it will be uh 10 bucks yeah so 880 dollars to acquire which means you get paid back in like a year you know three four months if it's 30 bucks a month i think so very good let's uh let's wrap up with the famous five number one favorite business book oh uh grade by choice number two is their ceo you're following or studying uh is slovak czechoslovakia yco no besides your own oh [Music] no any none number three what's your what's your favorite online tool for building a business facebook number for how many hours of sleep to get every night eight and what's your situation married single kids yeah i'm married and i have a son you're in the hall oh very cool how old are you uh i'm 30 30 years old last question what's something you wish you when you were 20. [Music] that i skipped university skip school guys there you have it surfer seo they were doing just 82 000 a month in revenue a year ago now doing 250 000 a month in revenue that's obviously a super healthy growth rate and they've done it all bootstrapped they spun it out an agency the agency's ceo and then mihaw and his two brothers own the equity in the business 30 people on the team right now serving over 4 000 customers growing using affiliates chrome extensions communities and more mihawk thanks for taking us to the top thanks for having me one more thing before you go we have a brand new show every thursday at 1 pm central it's called shark tank for sas we call it deal or bust one founder comes on three hungry buyers they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards their expenses their revenue arpu cac ltv you name it they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live it is fun to watch every thursday 1 pm central additionally remember these recorded founder interviews go live we release them here on youtube every day at 2 p.m central to make sure you don't miss any of that make sure you click the subscribe button below here on youtube the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live i wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the sas world whether it's an acquisition a big fundraise a big sale a big profitability statement or something else i don't want you to miss it additionally if you want to take this conversation deeper and further we have by far the largest private slack community for b2b sas founders you want to get in there we've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing you can go in there and quickly search and see what people are saying sign up for that at nathan lacka dot com forward slash slack in the meantime i'm hanging out with you here on youtube i'll be in the comments for the next 30 minutes feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode if you enjoyed it click the thumbs up we get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive i am on these shows but i do it so that we can all learn we have to counter those people we got to push them away click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that i appreciate your guys's support all right i'll be in the comments see ya