How Trust & Will Passed 5,000 Paid Customers with Three Estate Planning Products (Interview with CEO Cody Barbo)

Nathan Latka

00:00Just got done editing this interview. You guys are gonna love it. Before I do that though, I want you to know that I'm going to be in the comments for the next thirty minutes or so answering your questions. If there's additional questions you want me to ask the CEO next time I interview them, leave them below. Or if you're just loving the data points I get CEOs to share, click the thumbs up button below. That's your

00:18way of telling me you're loving this stuff, and I'll get you more of it. Additionally, again, I'll be in the comments answering any questions you have. Alright. For thirty minutes. Enjoy the interview.

Introduction to Trust & Will

Nathan Latka

00:27Hello, everyone. My guest today is Cody Barbo. He's building a company called Trust & Will. Think about it almost like online estate planning made super simple. We'll jump into it. Cody, ready to take us to the top?

Cody Barbo

00:39>> Let's rock it.

Business Model: Hybrid Upfront Fee and Subscription

Nathan Latka

00:40All right, man. So talk to us a little bit about the company. So first off, is this a pure play SaaS model or more like a marketplace?

Cody Barbo

00:47>> It's a hybrid. We have an upfront fee that we charge for our three products, and then there's an ongoing annual subscription because estate planning is a lifetime of updates. It's not, you set it up once you're done with it. You have kids, you buy a home, you build your wealth, you have an inheritance, you have liquidity. We want to encourage people and use technology to update their estate plans throughout their lifetime. So that's where the subscription

01:07>> comes in.

Who Estate Planning Is For

Nathan Latka

01:08Is this just for rich people?

Cody Barbo

01:11>> No, no. I would say that the misconception of estate planning is that people assume that it's for the wealthy. In fact, the most important reasons to set up an estate plan is if you own property, you have assets worth protecting, or if you're a parent, you can appoint guardians for your children, you can protect your home and your assets with a trust avoiding probate court, which can cost a lot of time and money and emotional toll,

01:32>> especially if you've lost a family member. So really, it's built for the everyday family in this country.

Core Customer Demographics

Nathan Latka

01:37Out of curiosity, because I'm give an example of my dad here in a second, what's the average age of a parent or a person that is paying you guys using you?

Cody Barbo

01:45>> Yeah. So majority, about 70% of our members are going to fall within the kind of 25 to 50 range and have minor children. It doesn't discount the fact that 30% of our members are 55, but our core focus is really people that are starting families, buying their home, building their wealth, and going on this journey.

Nathan Latka

02:03Okay. Yeah. Was gonna ask, I just went through this with my dad who's 83. And I mean, he like can't, hear me can barely type his thumbs are too big. He doesn't even understand like a keyboard text. And I'm trying to say, call a frickin lawyer and get this stuff done. And he's like handwriting stuff out. It would be a nightmare for for me to try and get him to use this even though he desperately needs

02:20it.

Cody Barbo

02:22>> Yeah, forty percent of boomers have no form of estate plan, which is honestly a crisis. You think of people our age that are now entering the kind of caregiver role, taking care of our aging parents or grandparents. And it's incredibly important to have these documents set up make it easier for transition when and if the time eventually comes. So for hopefully our parents, not for a long time, but it is a reality that we have to

02:41>> face at some point.

Pricing Across Three Products

Nathan Latka

02:42Yep. So okay, paint the picture here. Let's go to your core cohort. 70% between 25 and 50. Someone listening right now is 30 years old. They want to use you. On average, what are they gonna pay on the upfront fee and then what are they gonna pay on the annual subscription?

Cody Barbo

02:54>> Yeah. So we try to price our products as affordable as we can. We have three products in market. We have Guardian for the first time parent, which is $39 for an individual, $49 for a couple, $10 a year. We have our will package, which is 69 for an individual, $129 for a couple. It's an ongoing fee of 20 to $30 a year depending on which product

Nathan Latka

03:12you're 69

Cody Barbo

03:15>> for an individual will and $129 for a couple. And then we have our trust package, which is $399 and $499 with a $50 a year ongoing subscription. So really, it's for that main

03:26>> $399 setup. Correct.

Nathan Latka

03:27Got it. So someone's going to use all Guardian will and trust products, it's going be kind of 40 per month plus 70 per month plus, sorry, 40 to set up, 70 to set up, 400 to set up, and then something like, you know, 30 to $60 per year.

Cody Barbo

03:44>> Yeah,

03:45>> cause it's kind of crazy, like in an estate plan, you go to an attorney, you're gonna spend anywhere from 2 to $5,000 to set this up just to make a simple update, like you had another kid, you bought a new property, you moved states, it might cost you 1,000, 2,000. So just having that nominal annual subscription allows us to kind of keep that maintenance and relationship with our members so that as they go through life, these

04:05>> life events happen. I'm living proof of it. I got married, having a kid this year, and then we'll be buying a home. It's logical to go set up and update these documents, but not have to cost you an arm and a leg to do so.

Nathan Latka

04:16You're the perfect founder for this company. So before we get more of the backstory or the journey to this point, give me a sweet spot here. Sounds like people ignore the setup fees for a second. Is it fair to say maybe the average person paying you something 40 to 50 bucks a year?

Cody Barbo

04:32>> Yeah, about so. Yeah. If you average it across the products.

Nathan Latka

04:34Okay. Fair enough. And and and is there... Are there any power laws across the products? In other words, one one of these products makes up more than 80% of the revenue?

Cody Barbo

04:42>> Yeah, the trust makes up a considerable amount of our revenue considering that our base product, the Guardian is at $50 and our trust product is at $500 It is a 10x jump to the trust. I think with estate planning, most attorneys want you to set up a trust. It is the best option if you want to protect your assets, avoid probate, and avoid those fees that are associated with it. But for the first time parent who

05:03>> maybe doesn't own any homes, I think of like the younger millennial parent, like mid to late twenties, who just had their first kid, doesn't own any home or any property or assets. The peace of mind of knowing that your kids are protected is the single most important thing that we're trying to hit on, which is why 45,000,000 parents with minor kids in this country don't have any estate plan. Let's start them with the Guardian product and

05:22>> then work them up towards a will package or a trust package when the time is right, never forcing them in something that they're not quite ready for.

Company Timeline and Fundraising History

Nathan Latka

05:29Yep. Put this stuff on a timeline for me, when'd you launch the company?

Cody Barbo

05:33>> We started talking about this August '17. We entered a pitch competition that we took third place on at Qualcomm's headquarters, which was like a forcing function to incorporate because we had Techstars approach us, angel investors approach us. We incorporated in October '17. We went through Techstars in 2018. We raised our seed round that we announced in January of last year of 2,000,000. We announced our series a last month of 6,000,000. We've done some pretty cool stuff.

06:01>> We're live nationwide. We've had about 65,000 people sign up for Trust & Will for one of those three products. We did the first All

Nathan Latka

06:08pay or is that free and paid?

Cody Barbo

06:10>> Free and paid. Free and paid. We work with partners on financial services, insurance, couple other categories, so we can discount the products or do revenue shares with those partners. And then we have our kind of history defining milestone was last year in January, we did the first electronic will in history, US history, which means digital signature, digital notary, digital storage of documents. It is the future of not only every industry, but it is estate planning. It's

06:37>> just unfortunately the last industry to adopt modern tech.

Nathan Latka

06:40So if we just be clear, was the first digital will or trust?

Cody Barbo

06:43>> Digital will. Digital will. Interesting.

First Customer and MVP Development Cost

Nathan Latka

06:45Yep. Okay, so let's get more the early days here, the first couple of months. So forcing function was the Qualcomm event. It sounds like incorporated October 2017. How long were you writing code before your first dollar of revenue? Do you remember?

Cody Barbo

07:02>> Yeah, we launched our first product, which was the will, just a basic last will and testament in the states of California and Texas in April 2018. That's when we finished Techstars. That was like our coming out party. We were like, hey, we finished the Techstars accelerator. We launched our will in California, Texas, two of the biggest states. And that's when our first paid customer came through because the first 200 were friends in the network that had

07:24>> kids or owned property that we gave them a lot of freebies for putting up with our bugs. So about a four to six month development process.

Nathan Latka

07:32Okay. And I always like to give this question if you remember, can you quantify what you spent all in on your MVP before that first dollar of revenue? How creative were you?

Cody Barbo

07:41>> Yeah, probably a couple 100,000. I mean, had, for context, I have been a serial entrepreneur. It's my third startup, second venture backed. My two co founders, Daniel and Brian, they come from a custom software development background. Daniel was running biz dev. Brian was running product at the agency. And then we had a fourth develop... Or fourth person on the team who's developing the full system for our MVP. So between the four of us, upon incorporation, we

08:04>> raised about, I think, like, a 250,000 going into the start of twenty eighteen, that's including Techstars. And then by the time we finished Techstars, I think we wrapped up like... You could call it pre seed funding, but we had collected about $500,000 at that point. But we'd invested a couple 100,000 to get the product to where it needed to be. Considering the sensitivity of the documents and how important when they function once you pass, we wanted

08:27>> to make sure they were right before trying to rush us, you know, kind of stick together MVP to product market.

Current Signups and Conversion Rates

Nathan Latka

08:33So first customer is April 2018. How many are you serving now today?

Cody Barbo

08:38>> We're seeing about 100 signups a day or more, which is fantastic. And our conversion is anywhere from 10 to 20% depending on the product, depending on the day. Pretty good conversion to paid customer. And we're typically shipping out documents within a twelve to thirty six hour period. It just depends if it's the trust package, which is a lot more involved, or if it's the will package, which is just a simple folder that we can drop ship

09:02>> and put out the mail and ship out across the country.

Nathan Latka

09:04So what are those conversion rates? I mean, if you just the total customer account you're serving now today, ignore the one time stuff, just the ones that are paying you recurring and manage all this stuff for peace of mind. What is that? Are you talking like 10 or 20,000?

Cody Barbo

09:16>> So our recurring subscription will kick in starting this year. So when we launched our trust product in January of last year, it's just California, Texas, we launched the Will nationwide in January because we're still a young company, right? Like we've only had two years really of of operating history, but we've only had a product in market for about a year and a half. So our first round of subscriptions will formally kick in starting this month. But

09:38>> what's been interesting is that since we launched the Will in April 2018, over the course of that last year or since then, we've had people come back that set it up because they got married, they wanted to update it because they had kids, or they wanted to update it because they moved states, bought a new home. So we're seeing about one in a 100 folks come back to make that initial update without any marketing around the

09:58>> fact that, hey, you should come back and update if you've had any of these life events as triggers. So as we move forward into 2020 and beyond, we're not just manually reaching out to our members to say, hey, if you had one of these things happen, here's why you should update your documents. But we wanna also encourage with our development team, leveraging technology to know or predict when these events happen. We know that you got married

10:18>> or you had a kid, you moved to States, you bought a new home, to trigger an email to get our members to come back and make those updates.

Nathan Latka

10:23Okay, so just to be clear, you have 65,000 signups to date of which about between 10 to 20% have converted to paid, but that paid were those one time fees you told us about earlier, you don't have monthly recurring subscriptions yet that's going to kick in this year?

Cody Barbo

10:38>> We don't, yeah, subscriptions formally kick in this year. I mean, we were charging for updates, the price of the subscription, we would charge for updates throughout 2019, which gave people any life event that happened, the ability to come back, make the necessary updates and still get their documents printed and shipped to them. But it's about a 1% conversion, but that was off a small batch of the initial customer base from 2018 since that was really our

10:58>> first year in market. We only had one product. 2019, we launched two more products, so three in market, which means 2020, we have first full year, three products in market, people coming back in and based on the life events that have triggered that would require paid subscription updates, and I'll have better numbers for you as the year progresses.

Nathan Latka

11:16Yeah. Well, it sounds like the subscription thing will be... I mean, they're paying for peace of mind. So I'm eager to hear in a year how that progressive, I assume that's going to do extremely well.

Cody Barbo

11:24>> Yeah, the vision, mean, whole vision for the company is as we push the regulatory landscape for all 50 states to allow for an end to end digital experience, digital signature, digital notary, digital storage of documents, we want to forego even the need for that significant upfront cost and immediately kick you into the subscription day one, which is just an ongoing annual fee. And that could be subsidized through partners as well.

Nathan Latka

11:45Well, you raise capital, right? So like the setup fees typically in SaaS companies are usually to recoup CAC instantly that allows your economics to be healthier. But now that you've raised capital, you can afford to have a twelve or twenty four month payback and you can afford to get people on a recurring plan with longer LTVs versus the one time upfront stuff. So I mean, will you eliminate the one time upfront stuff this year?

Cody Barbo

12:02>> I mean, it's possible on our entry level documents. So the Guardian document potentially, because the document for Guardian is really top of funnel for us. If you're a parent with minor children and you at least want that peace of mind, let's get you into the funnel with that product here. But very quickly, might realize, like I was saying earlier, if you have assets, you own a home, you have investments, you have a life insurance policy, you

12:22>> wanna make sure those are cataloged correctly, we bump you up into the will tier, or from the will tier we bump into the trust. So we have flexibility to work with our pricing since our margins are fantastic, but we want to be really smart in terms of how do we communicate trust with a paid product, because we felt that a free product within estate planning can actually communicate distrust. Well, what's the catch if I'm making these

12:43>> sensitive decisions, right? What's the catch of a free estate planning document? So that's why we like the paid product, it's priced competitively, but we also want to make sure that we have an opportunity to adjust and evolve our business model.

Paid Customer Count and Competitive Sensitivity

Nathan Latka

12:54And so Cody, to date, now that we understand how the pricing actually works, how many customers have paid you at least a dollar to do something?

Cody Barbo

13:01>> We have at least a dollar. I'd have to run the exact number. I mean, it's north... It's between comfortably sharing north of 5,000, and it just depends which product tier they chose, if it came through a channel partnership or it came direct.

Nathan Latka

13:14Okay. So can we... Is it fair to just put a range between five and ten thousand customers that have paid something?

Cody Barbo

13:20>> Yeah. I'm trying to be mindful of what I'm sharing because we are venture backed and I know we have competitors out there. So I'm trying to play that game in my head of like, what do I feel is most appropriate to share? It It doesn't give away kind of the core foundational business metrics.

Channel Partnerships and Haven Life Insurance

Nathan Latka

13:32Yeah, think even if people know total metrics, public companies are like this, Some private companies share all this as well. It all comes down to execution, right? And so you're executing. It sounds like really part of the secret sauce here is you've built great channel partnerships to get 65,000 free signups. Walk me through some of those. I mean, you name a channel partner and why do they promote you versus someone else?

Cody Barbo

13:52>> Yeah, absolutely. So one of our longest partnerships is with Insurance. Haven Life Insurance is a subsidiary of MassMutual. They're targeting young families with term life policies up to a couple million dollars. Life insurance and estate planning go hand in hand. They're so complimentary. Most people start to think about life insurance because they got married or started a family. It's very complimentary to why people start to think about a will, is generally what most people think

14:14>> to do versus a trust, which takes a little more kind of financial knowledge and savvy to understand. So we have Haven Life where they have a benefits package called Haven Life Plus. They've wrapped in our wills of free will for their life insurance policyholders. And we have a phenomenal conversion from a Haven Life policyholder to a Trust & Will will customer.

Nathan Latka

14:35Yep. So let's say they drive you, you you told me a price point earlier for the will of $70 to set up, then something like $20 a year. Ignore the yearly stuff because that's kicking in this year. But if Haven drives you a $70 one time customer, do you just split 50/50?

Cody Barbo

14:49>> No. So we wholesale it with them. So we get the... Their their customers are getting the will for free, and then they're paying us a wholesale rate because it's a bulk rate on the back end.

Nathan Latka

14:57Oh, I see. Interesting. Okay.

Cody Barbo

14:59>> Yeah. They're much larger than Trust & Will. They're obviously funded by MassMutual, one of the largest life insurance companies in the country. It's still a MassMutual policy that you're getting. It's just Haven Life is the brand that they're marketing towards this younger family demographic on.

Nathan Latka

15:12Interesting. So Haven wills come to you at the beginning of twenty twenty and say, listen, Cody, we're gonna sign up 5,000 people this year. What's the cheat on for your will product? We're not paying $70 for every one of them. Can you give it to us for $5, but we'll commit to, again 1,000 and pay you 5,000 right now?

Cody Barbo

15:26>> Precisely. And we have a ton of flexibility to do that, not just with insurance companies, but we'll be announcing some partnerships in the financial services space here in 2020 that functions fairly similarly, either through a wholesale rate or through revenue share.

Team Size and Sales Strategy

Nathan Latka

15:37Interesting. Okay. Talk to me about the team. How many folks today?

Cody Barbo

15:40>> Yeah. We got 11 people on the team. So three co founders, we got a ten year trust and estate's attorney, head of marketing, a lot of product engineers.

Nathan Latka

15:48How many engineers writing code?

Cody Barbo

15:50>> We have five right now.

Nathan Latka

15:52Okay. And now your price point is not one that lends itself to field sales. Right? It's it's more of a no touch partner kind of model. So do you have any quota carrying sales reps or no?

Cody Barbo

16:01>> Not yet. No. It's it's an area that we're exploring. One of the interesting channels that will be evolving this year is financial advisors. So one of the roles that we're hiring for right now is a channel sales rep. We want to tap into the 300,000 financial advisors, wealth managers, CFPs in the country that often talk to their clients about estate planning from day one. It's a part of the onboarding conversation. Do you have an estate plan?

16:22>> If not, can I recommend you to someone in my network? We feel there's a massive opportunity to grow our network through the financial advisor space and to onboard their clients into the Trust & Will ecosystem. So basically building out a toolset

16:37>> clients but also to help be a part of the estate plan over time, which we're really excited to kind of announce more formally in the coming months.

Churn and Subscription Launch Plans

Nathan Latka

16:43No, it'll be exciting. Now we usually focus in-depth on SaaS companies on the show. Now you don't have the recurring stuff kicking in yet, so churn might not be critical for you right now. You obviously can't really measure churn on a one time product. Are you measuring churn right now? And if so, how are you using it as a leading indicator or lagging indicator?

Cody Barbo

16:58>> That's an awesome question. It's so interesting, like estate plans, it's such an essential life document. Our hope is that people don't ever churn out, that people will just kind of pay that recurring fee, we give them peace of mind and trust that we're always there to notify them of any law changes, to keep them on track if any life events happen in their life, we want to make sure those are reflected, they always have an updated

17:19>> estate plan. The So goal would be to keep people throughout their entire lifetime, even through death, which is part of our longer term vision to get into the distribution side of trusts and estates. That's where a lot of money is made in this industry, but again, it's not accessible to a lot of families. People don't have the education on the importance of a trust. So we want to be with them throughout their lifetime, but we'll

Nathan Latka

17:39>> have better

17:39numbers on You still have to convince them though, because you don't have anyone on actual recurring plans yet.

Cody Barbo

17:44>> That's a project for this year, corrects?

17:46>> The recurring plan, so at the checkout screen, you are opting into the recurring payment, the annual payment. What we're doing is taking a very hands on high touch approach to our member support. We call members instead of like a user or customer just because it humanizes the experience.

Nathan Latka

17:59Or someone that's going to die soon and make you a lot of money.

Cody Barbo

18:02>> Yeah. We... Yeah. Exactly. You really... We wanna have that hands on high touch approach to as that activation of the subscription kicks in, we're helping educate our members on why they wanna pay the subscription, which is peace of mind, ability to update the documents, cost of basically repaying the full purchase price again, that if they canceled out of the subscription, they came back in three years because they had another kid, they want to update their trust,

18:26>> it's going to cost them the full purchase price versus that $50 a year recurring. So the goal is just to kind of keep them looped into it as long as possible.

Nathan Latka

18:33Yeah. If we take that 5,000 customer number from earlier times that average ARPU of $50 per year that they're opting on the checkout screen, that's, know, $250,000, obviously, per year. Is it fair to say you're north of that at this point?

Cody Barbo

18:44>> Yeah. That's... Yeah. We... Yes.

Nathan Latka

18:47Okay. Do you think you'll break a million this year or did you break it 2019 or no?

Cody Barbo

18:51>> Revenue run rate? Yeah. We broke a million in 2019, which was awesome.

Nathan Latka

18:54How do you calculate run rate though for this kind of company?

Cody Barbo

18:57>> It's upfront. It's that upfront fee, and then it's ongoing LTV with a five year basically goal with a churn baked in. We have 10% churn baked in. It's kind of... It's tough to do it with our predictive model versus actuals, which we'll have much better grip on going into this year.

Nathan Latka

19:16But that's So when you say you

19:19break a million dollar run rate, though, typically when I talk to traditional SaaS companies where there's no upfront fees, it's pure subscription. What that means is you broke $83,000 a month in December 2019, multiplied by 12, your run rate is north of a million. For you though, I'm trying to figure out how you handle the $300 one time setup fees, right? Do you you don't include those in your run rate because those are one time, correct?

Cody Barbo

19:39>> Correct.

Nathan Latka

19:40Okay, got it. So basically, the average price point of your recurring plan you said earlier is about $50 per year. What you're saying is you have enough people paying $50 per year that you've broken a million dollar run rate at this point.

Cody Barbo

19:53>> Yeah, well both. We broke the million dollar run rate through the upfront purchase price

19:59>> that will factor in will break a million dollar subscription run rate as well.

Nathan Latka

20:03Okay, and you think you'll do that in 2020?

Cody Barbo

20:06>> Yeah.

Nathan Latka

20:07This on just the subscription side?

Cody Barbo

20:10>> Correct. Yeah. I mean, raised the $6,000,000 Series A, so we're gonna be investing pretty heavily in our marketing and acquisition efforts. And based on our revenue model, we have pretty ambitious revenue goals for the year.

Burn Rate, Profitability, and Series B Plans

Nathan Latka

20:20That's good. Very good. I assume you're obviously burning capital, correct? You're not profitable?

Cody Barbo

20:25>> Not profitable yet. No, that's that's part of the goal with the series a fundraise. That's what we communicated to our investors. It's important to us as a company. Think that there's been like a huge shift in private companies that are shooting for some sort of target raise or valuation, which I think is important, but it's not the end game. Think I'd rather hit a billion dollars in revenue than a billion dollar valuation. And that's the way

20:45>> that we kind of think about the short and long term goals for the business.

Nathan Latka

20:49You have a kid on the way,

20:52night. Burn can also keep you up at night. I mean, how comfortable, how much are you comfortable burning per month where you can still sleep well at night?

Cody Barbo

20:59>> Yeah, well, we factor in the fundraise for two years of, you know, full operation. So that's assuming that we made no money, stayed flat, we have two full years to go operate. The goal would be to drive our revenue goals, our product goals, and partnership goals for 2020, and then look at a series b fundraise in early twenty one. And at that point, we would be looking to raise sufficient amount of capital to like really position

21:20>> Trust & Will to be the category leader in modern estate planning. So we're playing the game of venture, it's part of the process. We're very fortunate that we've brought on incredible investors, but it's always about working towards that next fundraise and then working back from the milestones we need to hit in order to justify what could be for us like a 15 to $25,000,000 fundraise in fourteen to sixteen months.

Nathan Latka

21:40Yeah. So you raised 6,000,000, you give yourself two years of runway twenty four months, that's net burn monthly of about a 250,000. You're basically saying you're gonna try and stay well under that every month, give yourself enough time to get to that next round.

Cody Barbo

21:51>> Yeah, we're in San Diego, so we're not like your typical Bay Area or Northeast startup. Know, we have... We're spending a few grand a month on rent in this great office space. Market rates were paying people competitive salaries, but market rates down here are far cheaper than what you would expect in the Bay Area, Seattle, and the Northeast. So dollar stretches a little bit further, which works in our favor.

Famous Five Rapid Fire

Nathan Latka

22:09Alright. Let's wrap up here with the famous five. Number one, favorite business book?

Cody Barbo

22:13>> Favorite business book. Recently I love Secrets of Sand Hill Road by Scott Kupor of Andreessen Horowitz. Like I'm good at fundraising, it helped unlock my fundraising superpowers, so I'm really bullish on that book right now.

Nathan Latka

22:24Number two, is there a CEO you're following or studying?

Cody Barbo

22:27>> Yeah. Oh man, Justin Kan at Atrium is someone who I've really started to admire. I think that he's taken a really thoughtful approach to how he wants to better himself as a person, a human, a husband, a father, but also as a CEO to his company. And I really... I like engaging with this content.

Nathan Latka

22:43Cody, number three, what's your favorite online tool for building your company?

Cody Barbo

22:46>> Favorite online tool, Slack. I love Slack, live and breathe Slack.

Nathan Latka

22:50This number is going to go down on this next question when the baby comes, but currently how many hours of sleep are you getting there each night?

Cody Barbo

22:57>> About seven. I've really prioritized sleep over the last couple of years and seven is comfortable.

Nathan Latka

23:02And it sounds like married. Do you have any kids currently or this first one's the first one?

Cody Barbo

23:05>> Yeah. So it's first... Yes. First one. So that seven hours will probably go to three.

Nathan Latka

23:08Alright. And how old are you?

Cody Barbo

23:11>> I'm 30 years old.

Nathan Latka

23:12Okay, last question, Cody. Take us back to your 20 year old self. What do wish you knew?

Cody Barbo

23:16>> 20 year old self, it's gonna work out. I think you put so much pressure on yourself when you're like about to finish school or you're kind of entering like this next decade of your life of like being an adult for the first time. And if you surround yourself with good mentors and a good group of friends, things naturally start to play out as long as you kind of stay out of trouble and be mindful of your

23:33>> health.

Nathan Latka

23:34Guys there we have at Trust & Will serving over 5,000 folks helping them whether they're a parent and having guardian plans or setting up their will or setting up their trust. They passed $1,000,000 in run rate last year, hoping to scale aggressively past that here in 2020. They've raised $8,000,000 to do it, 6,000,000 most recently. A team of 11 people, obviously, burning cash to drive that growth. Five engineers right now, they've baked 10% gross churn into their plans,

23:56but they're truly launching true recurring revenue plans really this year. It'll be their first full cycle with three products. We'll see how that performs. Meantime, they've got a great channel partnership strategy with folks like Haven Insurance, who they wholesale subscription plans to. Let them go sell that way. Helps them keep their CAC down, get more exposure and scale. Cody, thanks for taking us to the top.

Cody Barbo

24:16>> Yeah. Thanks for having us, Nathan.

Nathan Latka

24:19These CEOs rarely give these kinds of interviews. I hit them hard. I get the data, and I want to do it more. So if you wanna get more of this stuff, make sure you subscribe up here. And then additionally, go check out one of my other CEO interviews right now.