How Blackthorn.io Reached $4.5M ARR and 300 Customers Serving the Salesforce Ecosystem (Interview with Chris Federspiel)

Introduction and Salesforce Exclusivity

Nathan Latka

00:00Hello, everyone. My guest today is Chris Federspiel. He's working on a company called blackthorn.io deep in the Salesforce AppExchange partner ecosystem. We're talking about event management, payment processing. You name it, Chris. You're ready to take us to the top?

Chris Federspiel

00:12>> Let's do it. Thanks for having me on here, Chris.

Nathan Latka

00:15You bet. Okay. So so a couple things I wanna dive into here first. Are you exclusive to Salesforce? In other words, does someone have to use Salesforce or use Blackthorn?

Chris Federspiel

00:23>> It is what's the expression? Bittersweet or is it both a blessing and a curse? But, yes, that is the case. Salesforce is our system of record and the only database we integrate with.

Nathan Latka

00:34So, again, blessing and a curse. Blessing is you're riding a freaking whale.

00:38Curse is they've gotta pay a bunch of money

Chris Federspiel

00:40>> to Salesforce

Nathan Latka

00:40before they can even use you. Talk to me about the blessing side first. How significant has Salesforce been in terms of driving you new customers?

Current ARR and AppExchange Growth Channel

Chris Federspiel

00:46>> Yeah. We're at 4,500,000 ARR. I think to date, we've had two outbound deals closed. We just started our outbound team. Otherwise, there's a huge ecosystem and the AppExchange has been great. The curse side is we pay 15% of our licensing fees back to back to the Dragon. And I heard this expression that you're riding on the back of a Dragon. At some point, Dragon might look backwards. So the fear is always, will they buy or build

01:15>> something that we're doing? But it's also so big that would it even matter? Because there's a lot of companies that continue to get huge even after that's happened.

Nathan Latka

01:24So just to be clear, you you you just passed 4,000,000 in ARR, like, this month?

Chris Federspiel

01:30>> 4.5, but we have a couple things going. So I think we'll be at 5 by the end of next month.

Nathan Latka

01:36Well, yeah.

01:36So the reason the reason I'm asking is if

01:37you're if you're at 4 and a half now, I'm curious. Where were you a year ago?

01:40What does growth look like?

Revenue History: From $700K in 2019 to Today

Chris Federspiel

01:43>> In it it kinda started April 2019. We brought on Cesar DeVoto who fixed our sales process. So we had 700 k ARR then.

Nathan Latka

01:55In 2019?

Chris Federspiel

01:57>> In mid twenty nineteen. Yeah. It's been now growing pretty consistently since then. We've identified our product market fit with events and go to market and focusing mostly on higher ed and nonprofit at the salesforce.org side. We have a lot of.com customers, but the closest match for our stack for the event side is with higher ed and with nonprofits. For payments, it's sort of all over the place. It's it's more infrastructure.

Nathan Latka

02:25Well, I wanna get into payments here in a second. But first, do remember

02:27what you finished 2020 with in terms of ARR?

2020 ARR and 100% Growth Target

Chris Federspiel

02:32>> I know this. I I think it was 3.6, and I think our goal for end of this year is 7.2 because we're trying to do a 100% year over year.

02:41>> Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

02:42So 3.5, go up 7.2. So so walk me through this. You you said you launched when did

02:46you launch the company? When was the first code written?

Origin Story: Payments First, Then SaaS

Chris Federspiel

02:50>> August 2015, doing only payments. But we mostly looked like a services company for a while because our payments app was free, largely funding the rest of our services. And we didn't switch to paid anything until the very beginning of 2019 where we made our payments app paid and then we launched our events app, which initially was terrible. But then we accelerated a lot of features, and it soon quickly did more, and that was able to get

03:23>> more people.

Nathan Latka

03:24Since your origin story, it talks about payments. Let's let's start there. Right? So what does it mean when you say you had a payment tool? Name a customer you were using back in 2015. We

Early Customers and How Payments and Events Stack

Chris Federspiel

03:36>> were building it for a while, so I don't know if we had any. But beginning of twenty sixteen, we had Urban Space. They rent pop up shops in New York, and we built a custom event portal for them, but they were doing all of their payments through our payments app. We still have a lot of customers like that now. Tony Robbins uses us. You call them up to do an event registration, but the payment goes through

04:04>> our payments app. Our events app uses our payments app as the processing engine. They kinda stack.

Nathan Latka

04:10So I guess the right question is, like, in this year, how much payments volume do you think will go through your payments portal?

Chris Federspiel

04:20>> We we might hit a billion in aggregate this year. From inception.

04:28>> In the payments world, like, ACH volume is irrelevant because it just doesn't really make any money, but our card volume is getting pretty significant. I think our our card volume is at least four hundred, five hundred million aggregate now or something

Nathan Latka

04:42What do think? Card card volume, like checkout Like credit card volume. Card volume. If we say card volume is 400 or 500,000,000, then how would that be different than the GMV going through your payment portal? Why would those two numbers be different?

Chris Federspiel

04:56>> There's a lot of ACH. ACH doesn't a lot of bank transfer type funding. But we don't we don't charge by the by that. We just charge per user of Salesforce user and up for the licensing for our app.

Nathan Latka

05:11Yeah. Yeah. But but your your sort of core activation utility metric is that is that payment volume. You know, if you do a good job and people are gonna do more events, there's gonna be more payment volume touching you. Right?

Chris Federspiel

05:21>> They will. And future acquirers tend I I've heard the multiple they give on on gateway revenue share volume is 18 to 22 x, which is, you know, obviously enormous.

Nathan Latka

05:33On volume or the revenue you're making from the volume?

Chris Federspiel

05:36>> On the revenue you make from the volume, which is like revenue share through gateways. But the way that the way that we're tabulating and focusing on sales is more of getting customers live and selling licenses. And if they happen to have a lot of volume, great, but that's not the main driver.

Nathan Latka

05:51Yeah. I mean, look, we have a comp in the space. I I think bill.com got a steal acquiring Divvy. We had Alex being on the show today for acquisition and they shared they passed about 4,000,000,000 in volume. The acquisition price was about half that, right? So $2.22600000000. So that's not on the net that Divvy was making, that's on the total GMV. But if we were any of same number on you, you could argue that, you know,

06:12you have a $500,000,000 company if you bought this billion.

Chris Federspiel

06:15>> It could. I mean, depends how much is card versus ACH. Like ACH really just doesn't make people money.

Nathan Latka

06:21So just to repeat back to you, since inception in 2015, you you're about to break a billion in total GMV and about 500,000,000 in credit card payments. Yeah. About. And and what is it actual just for just so can understand, like, this year, what do you think credit card payments will be through the system?

Chris Federspiel

06:37>> Couple hundred million?

Nathan Latka

06:38Yeah.

Chris Federspiel

06:39>> About that.

Nathan Latka

06:40Okay.

06:41And so people listening right now might be going, well, wait. Why doesn't if he's adding value, why doesn't Chris take 10 bips or 50 bips on on the spend?

Chris Federspiel

06:51>> It's a good question. We haven't decided to make our own processor only because our partnership with Stripe is really, really good. It's really strong. And the momentum that they have with Stripe Checkout that we've now just integrated and went live with is like, what they're doing is amazing. So our our customers are global. There's no way we're building all these integrations to all these different systems. It's impossible. Like, they need they need hundreds, if not thousands,

07:20>> of developers that they're up to now to make it happen. So our our goal is not to have huge margin on a small amount of customers. It's more about, like, a land grab to get as many customers as we can. And by having more capabilities for them to pay, we're finding the fastest route to do that is with integrating with Stripe.

Nathan Latka

07:37Yeah. So the story here, twenty fifteen free payments tool, the way that you sort of survived as a company and grew is you use the payment tool at lead gen for your agency build. You you you charged Urban Space custom, you know, plans to build out a custom build for them. And then you eventually said in 2019, we wanna launch a SaaS tool, and that's when you launched your your paid events app and your paid payments

07:56app.

Near-Death in 2018 and the Pivot to Paid

Chris Federspiel

07:57>> Yes. Yeah. At the end of twenty eighteen, we almost died. We had, like, seven k in the bank account. We had seven people, I think. People took voluntary pay deductions, and then we flipped the payments app to paid. We got one customer to prepay.

Nathan Latka

08:12What does that mean? What do you flip to paid if you're not taking a percent of GMV?

Chris Federspiel

08:16>> Well, everybody pays so when you buy Salesforce, you pay per user that's accessing it, so we charge the same way for our payments app. So we sell for license of people accessing the payments app. We don't charge anything per transaction.

Nathan Latka

08:30I see. Okay. Got it. So so that custom business, like, where you were using the free tool to get lead gen for your agency business, basically, you almost you almost died in 2018 and '17. So you were really forced to figure out a way to make money, and that's when you launched the the pay the recurring revenue stuff.

Chris Federspiel

08:45>> Yes. And at the time, we were building five other products, all of which we killed at one time and decided to focus on events as a layer that would sit on top of payments. And now they're both growing equally. I think the revenue lines are about equal. The go to market for events is a lot easier because the story is easier to tell. Mhmm. Payment vertical is sort of all over. So events tends to be, like,

09:06>> the marketing focus, but the internal infrastructure stands for.

Nathan Latka

09:10What were the three or the four other things you killed?

Chris Federspiel

09:14>> We had a billing app, which was some weird cross between a subscription app and and a QuickBooks. We had this multi tenant portal, which was sort of like a Salesforce communities compete, sort of like what Google was making with Google App Maker that they sunset.

09:33>> We had a

09:36>> form builder that was a web based form builder that was opinionated by the context. You we would have a prebuilt invoice appearance. So you would feed it what an invoice looks like or what a quote would look like. So instead of generating PDFs, you would have web based interactions with these. So that one, we we stripped it down, and now we have a web based invoice that's part of our pay later functionality of our events, and

10:02>> it also works in our payments app.

Nathan Latka

10:05Interesting. Okay. So the fascinating sort of origin story here, agency, payments, SaaS later on top of it, how many customers are now serving today on the SaaS side of things?

300 Customers and Average Contract Value

Chris Federspiel

10:15>> We have about 300 customers. The the deal sizes we have are sort of all over depending upon the space. So and we have a lot of legacy customers too, but it ranges anywhere from, like, 8 k to 50 k regularly, maybe 12 k average, something like that. Like, pretty standard for SaaS. Yeah.

Nathan Latka

10:37I mean, the 4,500,000 run rate divided by 300 is what? $15k ACV. But I bet you probably have some accounts that are, you know, very large.

Chris Federspiel

10:44>> There's a few that are large, a few that are small. The rev share helps out a good bit, and that's growing too. We don't charge customers anything for that, so it just helps.

Nathan Latka

10:54Sorry. Wait. What's the rev share?

Chris Federspiel

10:56>> So when you when you have volume going through any gateway, basically, company has some agreement with the gateway to get some kind of mutual funding that goes back and forth. It's like authorize.net has one.

11:11>> Braintree has one. PayPal has one. They all have one. So everybody that has an integration with any gateway that they're selling to their customer has some kind of, you know, mutual revenue share that accrues

Nathan Latka

11:22You get, like, a half a point there or 1% or something?

Chris Federspiel

11:25>> The percentages, we have some pretty tight lipped NDAs that we're supposed to keep our mouth shut about. But, basically, it ends up being mutual to the companies because it boos everyone to kinda make it happen.

Nathan Latka

11:38Got it. Got it. Okay. You you do make a percent of revenue then on the GMV. It's just you don't deal that you don't do that through your customers. You just negotiate with the providers themselves. And it's you know, there's 300 bips up for grabs in every transaction. So it's less than 3%, probably more than 0.1%, somewhere in there.

Chris Federspiel

11:54>> Yeah. Don't charge customers, but sometimes we can get a bit more aggressive with their per license pricing, which is their out of pocket if we see some pretty substantial volume that they're processing.

Nathan Latka

12:08Yeah. No. My point is the more GMV up to your platform, the better you can negotiate with the actual team, like the ACH, like the provider on the back end. Not your I'm not talking about targeting your customers, but you can say, listen. I'm processing a billion a year now. We're gonna move to somebody else unless you take it from point 1% cut to a point 25% cut. Know, I'm making this up. That's my point.

Chris Federspiel

12:26>> Sort of. It's sort of leveraged like that, but the reality is that a lot of gateways' technologies just stink. They're just really not that good. Like, everybody can do a charge and a refund, but what happens when you wanna do reconciliation by webhook with a big JSON that needs to process in the right order? Like, it's not common. Like, what happens if you wanna have a mobile SDK to do mobile payments interacting with EMV certified card

12:50>> readers? Like, there's there's not many.

Nathan Latka

12:52Yep. Interesting. Okay. What about how you funded this business? Is it bootstrapped or have you raised?

Funding History: Launch Accelerator and Employee Round

Chris Federspiel

12:58>> We got 50 k from a friend,

13:04>> a 100 k from the launch accelerator, the Jason Calacanis one. That was in 2018 when we almost died, kinda had to. And then we had How

Nathan Latka

13:15how how diluted was that? How much equity do have to leave up with a $100k?

Chris Federspiel

13:19>> Their their agreement is pretty standard. They're 6% for a 100 k. I think YC is, like, one fifty for 6% or something now. So Mhmm. But, yeah, I pitched something like a 100 investors, and every single one of them said no, partly because I'm not very good at sales, partly because our vision wasn't nailed down. As you know, we had all these products. So all the employees have options, and at some point, they said we want

13:49>> we want more than you're giving us, which was already, like, 12 or 13% of the company or something.

Nathan Latka

13:55But we had an

Chris Federspiel

13:56>> employee rounds, and they bought, like, another 180. So in terms of when a company gets funded, we have $350k to date, which, you know, our monthly expense now is, like, $450k, $490k. So, you know, it really didn't do much. So we're, you know, we're largely bootstrapped. Mhmm.

Nathan Latka

14:15Well, also, when did the employees do that deal? What year?

Chris Federspiel

14:20>> It was end of twenty nineteen.

Nathan Latka

14:242019.

Chris Federspiel

14:25>> Okay. Before COVID stuff.

Nathan Latka

14:27Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Got it. So 50 when you launched from a friend, a 100 k in 2018 from the launch accelerator for six No.

Chris Federspiel

14:33>> The the fifty and hundred, those came August 2018. The first three years, we had no funding at all. So Got it. I previously founded a services company, and we had a bunch of customers that we sort of carried over.

Nathan Latka

14:49Yep. Okay. Got it. So then in 2019, when the employees of that deal, how much equity did they buy with the $180k investment?

Chris Federspiel

14:59>> It was a few points at that at that point. 4% ish, three three four or something.

Nathan Latka

15:06Okay. So so, I mean, if if they bought back 3%, I mean, what? We can do three times 30. What you're valuing the company at, like, $6,000,000, something like that.

Chris Federspiel

15:16>> I think it was around 8. Okay. I'm getting loose numbers. I don't have the numbers on top of my head.

Nathan Latka

15:23>> Well, no. No.

15:23The reason I'm

15:24asking is because there might be people listening that wanna do this with their employees as well, but they're not they might not be quite sure how to negotiate the valuation with their employees. Like Oh, we didn't do a negotiation.

Chris Federspiel

15:33>> What we did is we got a 409A through Carta. Okay. And we asked we asked Carta for the highest discount they could give, which gave the employees the lowest exercise price.

Nathan Latka

15:48Yep. Not the way to do it in terms of tax reasons and all that. Just do it externally online.

Chris Federspiel

15:52>> Subjectiveness then. Yeah. It was Yeah. Clean. There was no negotiation.

Nathan Latka

15:57Yep. Cool. Okay. So so, again, today, $4,500,000 run rate, $375,000 a month in revenue. You just said you're expensive about $450k, so you're burning about, what, $50k a month right now as you're growing?

Capchase Financing, Hiring Plans, and Valuation

Chris Federspiel

16:09>> Capchase.com, I don't know if you know them, they're similar to pipe.com. We have an agreement with them where we now have a bunch of recruiters full time, and we're gonna hire far past ahead of our revenue and back fund it with the Capchase funding. It's a new word for line of credit, I think of it as. So that's more or less what's going to be happening. So with the trajectory we have, we're gonna scale to around

16:36>> 120 people by the end of next year.

Nathan Latka

16:38Where are you now?

Chris Federspiel

16:39>> Right now, we have 40. I think in the next two to three months, we'll have 60, and then it freezes until the beginning of next year where we kind of see where sales settle out because we're not exactly sure what we're gonna scale to with sales. There's a bit of hypothesizing with formulas. And then we're gonna continue to hire from there. It's more or less

16:59>> Capchase funding it, so it's non dilutive. I think I did some rough math. I think over the next two and a half to three years, we're gonna pay them upwards of 2,000,000. Whereas if we did a dilutive round now at exit, that dilution would be minimum 20,000,000, like, bare minimum. So Yeah. Even though it's a lot of fees at exit, it ends up being a lot less.

Nathan Latka

17:22Yeah. We we have built you you don't

17:24know this because, well, I guess, we're just meeting. We have built Founderpath, which competes directly with Capchase because I wasn't happy with the fees they were charging. So I imagine I'm gonna guess here. I imagine you probably got something like a 10 or 11% discount on your ARR. Is that accurate?

Chris Federspiel

17:38>> Mm-mm. We we got a pretty good rate.

Nathan Latka

17:42Okay. Well, I know their cost of capital because they raised from I 80, so there's no way they lent to you at a cheaper cost than their capital. So the lowest discount rates that they'll do is probably, like, eight or 8.5%. So, again, pretty pretty good deal there. Now you they usually have to pay that back though in a year. Were you able to extend your runway so that you can invest in growth and have more

18:00time to see your ARR accumulate?

Chris Federspiel

18:02>> No, it's still a twelve month payback.

Nathan Latka

18:05Why ask for more?

Chris Federspiel

18:08>> We got a very good rate. It is better than anything I saw. I did ask them if they wanted to do more, but at the same time, it ends up also being

18:22>> I'll caveat this by saying I'm better at product than finance, but it ended up seeming like it ended up being more fees that you end up paying when you look at it overall. And even though it would allow more time for our revenue to catch up to pay those, at the end of the day, still was more fees. So I'm not sure which one's better or worse.

Nathan Latka

18:40We don't don't think there should be any fees on this stuff. We'll talk more about it later. But point being, I love what you're doing. You're keeping your equity. You're you're investing in growth. That's why that's how you're covering your 50 k per month in burn right now as you scale. So I love this. It's a great story. Now if you where would you value the company today? You're doing 4,500,000, you're growing nicely. What valuation do

18:58put on it?

Chris Federspiel

19:00>> I know what the numbers are in the ecosystem for other similar types of comps. So if we're able to do 100% year over year, I think on the lowest end, it would be, like, an eight x. Mhmm. On the on a on a high end, I think it's 12 x in a competitive type of environment. So if we said 10 x, which I don't think someone would just hand over to you, but I think that you

19:23>> could get there, somewhere between 40 to 50, if I had to guess.

Nathan Latka

19:29Yeah.

Chris Federspiel

19:30>> I had loose inquiries coming around 45 to 50, but

Nathan Latka

19:36I don't know.

Chris Federspiel

19:37>> Why did why did you take the deal? Why not sell?

19:40>> Because at this point, why? What's the difference? What's the difference between getting millions or more millions? What's at this point, it's I wanna see what we can do. It's it's fun. I don't have aspirations to do some wild, crazy thing.

Nathan Latka

19:53So Well, let me let me put a caveat out there. Look. A lot of, you know, Mark Cuban, obviously, they act like they're, like, super smart and we're mean, timing is important. Okay? These people have beautiful timing. And when you look at Hopin, when you look at Visible, when you look at events.com, when you look at everybody in this space, evaluations are through the roof insane.

Chris Federspiel

20:09>> They're crazy right now.

Nathan Latka

20:10Completely irrational. If you are a smart business person in this space and you're getting crazy valuation, you would use the momentum exit and then go reinvest in your next thing and and laugh all the way to the bank because I don't I don't see how the event space can get more frothy than it is right now.

Chris Federspiel

20:24>> See, I I gave the team a goal of hitting 35 ARR by June 2024, which gives three years of a 100% year over year. And I have nothing else I wanna immediately do right now at Okay.

Nathan Latka

20:41Well, that's the key then. That's the key is that you don't know what else you would do. If you had $40,000,000 in bank, you don't know what else you'd go do.

Chris Federspiel

20:47>> So so a goal is if we're able to actually do this 100% year over year and we get up to 35, let's say we get seven x. Right? That allows me to put a a very large amount of money into a 501(c)(3) and give away $5,000,000 to $6,000,000 a year while the principal still grows. And that to me sounds fun and rewarding. I have no desire to make some the only reason to make more

21:14>> money after you have a lot of money is for the fun of making the product or because you're obsessed with just getting more money.

Team Size, Engineers, and Sales Reps

Nathan Latka

21:20Completely understood. Hey. We got carried away here. We're overtime. So some rapid fire stuff real quick. Out of the 40 employees today, how many engineers?

Chris Federspiel

21:29>> I'll put it I'll put it like this. When we have 60, at least 20 will be engineers. How many engineers today? It's around 15, including QA.

Nathan Latka

21:40And how many quota carrying sales reps do you have, if any?

21:45Three. Okay. So there is a motion there. That's great. And then churn, critical in a SaaS business. What is your churn?

Churn, GRR, and NRR

Chris Federspiel

21:53>> The GRR is anywhere from 89 to 92.

Nathan Latka

21:56And what's net

21:58gross revenue net revenue retention?

Chris Federspiel

22:00>> The the NRR is around 95. There's a lot of history around those where they're gonna be increasing because we changed some things with legacy.

Famous Five: Books, Tools, and Personal Life

Nathan Latka

22:08Fair. Fair. That makes sense. Okay. Very good, Chris. Let's wrap up with the famous five. Number one, favorite business book.

Chris Federspiel

22:17>> Great question. The first thing that came to mind was the Who book on hiring. I can't say it was my favorite or that I really enjoyed it, but we use it pretty religiously for hiring now.

Nathan Latka

22:25Number two, is there a founder you're following or studying?

Chris Federspiel

22:29>> I mean, it's cliche as hell, but Elon Musk is unstoppable. I just read everything that comes out from that guy. I hate saying it, but it's one of the

Nathan Latka

22:39What's your favorite online tool for building a business?

Chris Federspiel

22:45>> Honestly, I I use our cash flow Google Sheet the most, and I'd fiddle with the numbers with that.

Nathan Latka

22:51Number four, how many hours of sleep do get every night?

Chris Federspiel

22:54>> Oh, that's actually decent now, finally. Seven and a half to eight.

Nathan Latka

22:59And situation, married single kiddo?

Chris Federspiel

23:03>> Divorced, but now a girlfriend of almost a year I'm moving in with. That's a much better fit for me. Any kids? No kids. No plans to have kids.

Nathan Latka

23:12And how old are you, Chris?

Chris Federspiel

23:14>> I'm pretty good. I got a triathlon coming up in How old are you? Oh, how old am I? Thought you said how am I doing? I'm I'm turning 40 in October October.

23:22>> 40 in October.

Nathan Latka

23:23Last question. Something you wish you knew when you were 20.

Chris Federspiel

23:28>> Oh my god.

23:29>> I wish I knew I had bipolar two. That would have saved a lot of pain. That took a long time to figure out what to do.

Nathan Latka

23:36Guys, there you have it. Blackthorn. Blackthorn. Launched in 2015 as a free payments gateway. They launched their SaaS play in 2018 after almost one broke, only 7 k in the bank. They they got some funding, a very little not $100. Now they're at $4,500,000 in terms of revenue growing almost or over 100% year over year, serving 300 customers. Again, funding the business themselves to preserve equity as they continue to scale. Team of 40 today, thinking about

23:59100 by the end the year. We'll see what happens. Chris, thanks for taking us to the top.

Chris Federspiel

24:03>> Thanks, Nathan.

Nathan Latka

24:05One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM central. It's called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers, they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU, CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it. And the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday, 1PM

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