How Surfer CEO Lucjan Suski grew to $16M revenue and 4K customers in 2024.

Intro hey everyone so yeah my name is Lucia and I'm CEO and co-founder of surfer at B2B SAS product that we grew to 15 million ARR in around five years with less than one million dollar in of marketing spent in total at server we are building an AI SEO content automation platform that does all the heavy lifting around content ideation writing optimization and then performance measurement so that you can focus on the stuff that matters which is telling the story to your customers and we are taking care of making sure they can find it um somewhere or not okay so over the next uh 20 minutes I'm going to show you some marketing tactics that for us um were a waste of time and we didn't attempt them at all or we just attempted them and wasted some time uh there's some stuff that's usual uh yeah it can be tricky to execute or it's kind of like underrated so I'm going to talk about pricing a bit about affiliate marketing about building a community and finally we have some weird tactics that kicked us um we launched a Chrome extension to 500k uh with the active users we did a partnership with Jasper and then I'll share one simple trick how to make your G2 reviews go through the roof Growth tactics so is there our Revenue growth um we had like almost 1 million dollars in 2019 and last year we closed at around 15. and most of the tactics I'll tell I'll talk about today will be applicable across all of this range okay um but um if it's not then I will of course let you know um so yeah starting with tactics that can be a waste of time and the first one just I want to share the recent experiment that we did on like generic growth tactics which I use the term for like kind of like whether you are using a free new model a free trial demo or uh you know how do you convert your customers here's the recent experiment that we launched like a month ago so on the chart you see like in general conversion rate from signed up user so basically after they put an email and password sign up and then they have to basically choose the plan and then take out the credit card and pay so this is the conversion up until before the experiment we where we didn't have any kind of free trial so whenever you wanted to try Surfer you had to pay the money up front says roughly 15 and then we thought yeah maybe it's a good idea to let people try Surfer without you know paying up front fifteen fifty nine dollars uh just for like a credit card details we'll charge them after seven days that's probably going to make the conversion much higher and it didn't actually work like that the conversion rate almost didn't move and that really is a conversion rate not to the like the payment after you activate the trial but just to the trial so in general it seems like people at least for our customers it's kind of the same uh thing to just take 59 out of the pocket versus like if we charge them after seven days the conversion rate is the same but the idea here is um really if you are just starting or um if you are just below 10 million dollars ARR probably you should you should focus on building a Shut Up And Take on the money product so focus on getting those area adopters they will basically either buy your product or not they don't care about you know trials freemium if they believe in your value proposition they will pay for your product if they don't it's not a problem of bad marketing or conventional optimization but rather a product problem SEO um yeah so build the shutter Shut Up And Take My Money product and just charge your damn customers up front ideally annually uh another one is SEO and why the hell is CEO of an SEO Product Company telling you that SEO can be a waste of time well it was for us but we were in quite unique position so um just bear with me here's a decision uh making chart that you can use to tell if you should do SEO why we didn't do that because we are bootstrapping so we were kind of like short on money our Niche was highly competitive so we were to compete with hrefacm Raj HubSpot big domains big players so if that's the case you will need to wait for results for a long time like a year or so and you'll need to invest a lot of money and if you are bootstrapping you don't have this money and ideally you get your cash flowing from the get-go to just be able to to invest more on tactics that will um Compound on the overtime so yeah if you are profitable over one million dollar AR you do invest in SEO so we just waited for for some time if you if you're not bootstrapped if you have highly competitive Niche so you probably have to ask your investors are they willing to wait for results and if they don't you change your investors because you know it's a long-term game it's always a long-term game and uh the best marketing tactics uh compound over time so uh if you just focus on on stuff that's taking uh giving you immediate effect or are easily measurable then it's not going to work um so offline conferences um many people though we did the same like yeah a website let's go on the website it's so many people right so many potential customers will talk to you know different people they will buy our product well it doesn't work like that because out of those thousands of people on the conference there is just a little um just a little be really interested in your product be part of your idea customer profile and then out of those you'll be able to talk to like I don't know 50 and then there's just one person that will buy or ideally maybe it's not even one person so don't go to to like big conferences uh trying to sell your product if you're just getting started what to do instead go for a local Meetup you will be able to for much more intimate relationship with your customers area adopters it will compound over time as well much better or we also did um one big conference and it makes sense as long as it targets your your ICP um precisely like we went to the conference for SEO professionals decision makers about you know buying software and um that that can work but don't go to like generic website or SAS stock conferences so the usual stuff pricing how many of Pricing you experiment that changed your pricing over the last last six months 20 30 40 that's that's nice but everyone should do that really because uh it's it's a it's a huge a huge growth level for for any SAS company so uh here is the real world pricing survey outline that we just launched for our new product and the idea is to learn such a survey uh before you start working on on a product and not after or never because it's it will make you much easier to invest your time later on much more confident whether you are building the right thing and basically it will put you in the right frame of mind how to frame your value proposition to ask people like how much money are you willing to spend on it so get much more precise description of your what you are building and then the artifact from that it's like presentation or 50 slides are on different you know data points but this is one of the most interesting one um which shows you like in our case the Market penetration maximizing maximizing price was like 15 dollars per article but then we could charge much more to maximize the revenue much much less people will buy like 10 percent but the revenue will go go up so we'll have it will be much easier for you to decide like how how uh how you should price the product that you are launching and actually like besides besides conducting the willingness to pay research willingness to pay research before creating a new product you should start pricing higher and not like lower uh than your competitors because at the beginning you are looking for area adopters they will have higher willingness to play so you can just capitalize on this and just get some money to get started uh it's it's it's like if you are bootstrapping you should be looking uh for for exactly that don't use discounts don't do lifetime deals um next to affiliate affiliate marketing Affiliate Marketing so here is the slide is actually wrong because it includes Jasper partnership but cut it like in half and you'll you'll have an idea how much revenue does affiliate partnership along brick affiliate marketing brings us so roughly like a million and a half for 2022. and it's a it's a nice channel uh people are generally afraid of spending like 30 commission fee uh like someone will get 30 lifetime for my customers does a lot but if your price higher you have you'll have some leeway to do that so that's one and the actual commission is lower because if you if you trace like big Affiliates uh then you'll get uh brand awareness uh because you know they'll um show it to their Community spread the word so brand awareness is like you cannot measure that affiliate links are often often skipped as well so Community Building like Community Building there's one tip I can share that the the biggest one is that be authentic be real be memorable like this is our how to surf a weekly walkthrough with me how our our CPO and like you cannot not memorize this guy right so um it's like so so sad to see all those B2B startups SAS products have this boring marketing like just like anyone else nothing really you know you don't have to necessarily do that someone right be someone be where your customers are not like learn slack Channel because it's convenient for you if your customer is hanging hang around Facebook do the Facebook group you need to test where is the the best uh where's the best for your uh for your customers Marketing Tactics and we'll see tactics so Chrome extension uh we saw an opportunity keywords everywhere was uh like a leading Chrome extension for uh seeing basically seeing search uh search volume data directing Google and one time they said it's going you know you're going to have to pay for this and we had we saw like huge backlash on Facebook like why do we have to pay for this we don't want to pay it was like one dollar a week but still it made difference to to their customers they had like I know 500k uh or so users and we're like we have this data we can build this so we did in two weeks uh we created keyword Surfer and we saw like articles uh like this it looks like keywords everywhere but not completely so we had a lot of PR from the get-go we reached 65 000 users like potentially interested in a product like seeing server logo every time they opened Google that's that was powerful for brand awareness right now it's like 500k users and it's one of the reasons uh why we are so uh efficient uh with our marketing spent the enabler was that we had to make decisions decision about doing this immediately fast and execute fast and just use the opportunity that we that we saw so you cannot replicate that probably but you can replicate the decision-making process uh about looking for opportunity and executing as fast as you can uh it doesn't make a lot of direct conversions but brand awareness is is there JavaScript partnership same story JavaScript Partnership we met uh we met in the evening like in April with the CEO of of Jasper because they saw like they saw a lot of customers asking for server integration we saw a lot of customers asking for JavaScript integration so like yeah let's do it 28 hours later this ready-made product like you could open Jasper sign up with Surfer account and boom you saw all of our guidelines directly there and it's crazy because 20 of our Revenue is brought by Jasper skyrockets and so on but it's kind of a threat if you feel depends so much on one one customer acquisition Channel questions exactly yes that's us yes yes so in Jasper you can enable server integration and you'll see our guidelines how to write the content yes so that the trunks 30 commission you know it's it's freezing but um it's worth it uh yeah lifetime lifetime uh G2 Reviews how to make your reviews on G2 uh go like you see like between like February 2021 to uh June we went from 20 to 120. keyword server reviews from 128 to 200 in a month what happened one simple trick ask your customers a favor in exchange for a credit in your product like get server certified to continentality of credits write a G2 review one Continental Credit and and so on and so forth you can figure out a lot of growth tactics around this framework and it's working wonders um yes we have user based uh is a and the thing is people are not using those credits anyway because they have some some big limits they are living like 10 20 limits they still do it I don't know why and the thing is if you ask them to write a G2 review they won't do like one star because they would feel bad about it so they either leave a good review or no no review at all so it's great um people will do anything in exchange for free credits if your product is product is right yeah no no Jasper does this tactic as well uh so uh the great stuff was enabled by execution speed of execution creativity you just wait for opportunity and jump on it and execute as fast as you can and here's a really quick framework how you can figure out whether to invest in a particular marketing tactics at any given Revenue level so if you are just getting started you need immediate effect because you need the cash flow to get flowing you need to be calls and time effective because of course you don't have any of those but you also need a compounding or profound effect because you if you if you are willing to invest in tactics that will bring your I know conversion 20 if you have like 100 customers that's not going to work that's not how you build a big company you need 10x uh 10x stuff or stuff that will compound over time if you're growing bigger you can you know uh you can just do around effect and cost time Effectiveness because you can invest over a longer time uh you don't need this immediacy and then if you have one million above you can just invest in stuff that's compounding like brand awareness or if they if it has a big effect also uh so it's cost doesn't matter anymore so I showed you some taxis as well waste of time usual trigger uh underrated and some weird stuff and thank you very much good luck and have fun [Applause]

Hello friends and family it's quite a big audience right now but I hope I can Delight you with this presentation so what I will be showing you is next 20 minutes I will go through the partnership types you can have as a sales company I will show you how to do the evaluation because wrong partnership can hurt you quite quite badly as well and I will back up my words with some results so let's get it started does it work yes it does so this is our Revenue chart I marked two spots with these purple arrows the first arrow is representing when we kicked off first type of Partnerships which is affiliate marketing and the second one is the biggest integration we did so far so let's start with these types so we've got affiliate marketers you can consider it is it really a partnership but in fact it is but it is a partnership between SAS company and a person person has the audience the person has the following and he is willing to monetize the following by reviewing your product and it is great to start with it at the very beginning because the setup is really easy and it doesn't cost you anything really it's like 100 bucks for a software that will track commissions and that's it the only thing you have to do is to provide them competing offer and the product that they will be proud of reviewing and then we have the Integrations that will have the high impact on your Revenue but they will require a lot of work in terms of technical marketing and stuff so it's really good idea to evaluate before you really get into any integration and then I will show you the speed run so how we integrated the best integration we had so far within 28 hours so affiliates they are willing to earn money through their audience so you need a competing offer for them we started with paying 30 percent recurring commission it seems like a lot isn't it like from every 100 bucks subscription we are paying 30 bucks every month but if you consider that not everyone is really following the affiliate links you got a lot of press you got a lot of reviews but not every single person is using the affiliate link so um you can consider impact of affiliate marketing two times bigger than the cost it looks like so in fact it's 15 to 20 percent of Revenue so the commission gets basically lower and this is how we scaled up the program Computing offer quality product and as you can see right now 3 000 affiliate marketers so we partner with 3 000 affiliate marketers a single half time person is managing this uh this whole uh process so uh it's really a good Roi in here I will show you on the chart how much money it makes but what about the Integrations as the Integrations have way bigger impact so when the founders meet you get like this first impression of let's do it we've got this uh you know excitement at the very beginning but it quickly changes into more and more friction that hurts it so then the techie meets with the other guy and they're like okay how how we gonna do it are we going to create spaghetti in the code but get it delivered quickly or we will do it the right way but we will be late to the market so the first friction shows up then we got this moment of product managers or like even yourself uh you're like I had the plans but now the plans has changed and it's always like you got this new shiny object and you feel like okay let's dump everything and start pushing this new goal so another friction with your previous plans shows up and then on top of that you got some billing issues like um all the money should go through our company and you're like okay it's not the best solution but maybe I can I can take it and on top of that you get the terms from potentially way bigger company that can force you to do something like uh I don't know you have to take responsibility for whatever whatever and you're like okay we've done so much work in this integration that uh it's really a bad idea to to turn it down or we will sacrifice that work and turn it down on or we will take take it on the terms that are not worth going for so it's really a struggle but it doesn't have to be this way there is a way to get the win-win situation uh with SAS Partnerships if you can keep it simple and affiliate marketing is a great help in here because you can avoid this is actually a good tip you can remember this one uh you can leave behind all of these billing issues bundling pricing and stuff if you have the affiliate setup already done because instead of selling a bundle you can let them sell your tool and you can sell their tool and the only connection between it is you are invoicing them for the commission they are invoicing you for the commission and that's it it's super simple and it leaves behind all the hassle and I will of course tell you more about the same goals of the company the same size the same way of work but I will leave it for a little bit later I still have quite some time so sitting here and we are all excited this is the very first moment when we are meeting another founder is the founder of of Jasper Dave Rogan Moser and we were like okay let's do the integration and you know what uh we skipped all the evaluation process for one reason uh the reason was that our customers asked us to integrate with Jasper and Jasper customers asked them to integrate with server so we skipped the evaluation process and boom 28 hours later we've managed to introduce the integration to to the market that was really doing great people were really crazy about it but if you have a ton of emails from prospects or if you are trying to get some Partnerships and you don't know who to mail who to who to contact you need evaluation because without the evaluation you'll most likely get a failure and I've got a bunch of failures in the next slide so uh well we've did like 20 Integrations and only one is really doing great that's why the evaluation is a good idea and we will evaluate these potential Partnerships in terms of how they work and what's the product so we will try to evaluate the company and we will try to evaluate the product and of course you can get this this thing the SAS partnership checklist it's available I don't have the URL but I will tell you it's surfaceo.com SAS open and you will be able to download the PDF that consists of these questions don't have to take any photos just download their surfaceo.com SAS open so the business who they are and how they work who they are is basically about the size of the company Their audience who do they serve because if you have a situation when you are much smaller than the potential partner you will have issues with negotiation if they are much smaller you can basically use the position of strength in the negotiation and it's not going to work really well and how do they work is about the legal is about death team agility it's about the marketing if they are really willing to uh pickup what you have to say what you have to what do you what you have to offer and if they are not agile if they are legal heavy while you want to do it quickly it's not going to work but it's not about looking for specific answers there's no good or bad answers it's about finding a match so if you do the same if you are both legal heavy that's okay it will work if you are both agile kind of YOLO development that's also fine but if there is like a difference in any of these areas you will be frustrated like crazy um and when it comes to when it comes to the product we've got two areas of evaluation of the product first is the synergy so if these products are within the same process so like for example you've got I don't know email marketing process and one part is to create the email and the other part is to send the email and if one company supports creation of the email and the other company supports sending of the emails we've got the perfect Synergy and you can go for for that potential partnership and the other area is the cost the cost is not only about the dev team but it's it is also about marketing it's about support and you have to really check whether there won't be too much hustle in creating landing pages in creating instructions for the support and so on just so so you are secured and your current customers are not hurt with this integration and the pricing pricing is also really important and it can turn down the whole integration even though it was a perfect fit the pricing itself can turn it down and the most important part of this is the type of uh the um the billing model like if they are one-time subscription lifetime deal whatever and you are SAS their customers are not ready for paying monthly if you are 100 bucks and the company starts at 20. their customers are not prepared to spend 100 every month on a on a SAS product and even though there is a big match in all of the other questions this itself can ruin your partnership and I got the direct example of that behavior so let's jump to the results because results is something that can prove I'm talking real deal or not so I've got a few examples of the failures I've got some key aspects of why it worked and got some Revenue numbers the first one the first failure I think it is also the first integration we ever did it's the writer access is a is a company that produces content and we are SEO tool that optimizes the content but it turned out that their Founders were really talking great they were like speakers they convinced us it will be a good idea and we went for it without testing it turned out that Their audience is not willing to buy server that well that simple another one asmrush huge company maybe you've heard actually semrush is one of the sponsors of this of this conference that's open I think so sem Rush is a huge huge company and we didn't have aligned goals like they wanted to integrate another SEO tool while we wanted to make this integration really meaningful for our users and they were like okay just check another integration and we were on the on the opposite side and it turned out that the legal obstacles that the terms they offered we had everything ready I can tell you the design was done the product was done everything was ready and we had to turn it down just because the terms and the legal stuff we couldn't accept it and the last failure is the right Sonic right Sonic is exactly the same tool as Jasper that is crazy good for us but we are misaligned in terms of the pricing right Sonic is a cheap alternative while Jasper is leading in the Industry Jasper caused similar amount a surfer while right Sonic is a few times cheaper and well they bring the leads they got the trial and no conversions so well it didn't work because of the pricing so let's take a look again at this chart and right now I'll explain you uh how the Skyrocket kind of moment the second purple Arrow happened so the key factors the key factors of the success is that when you have the same goals at the comp as the company as you partner with if you have a simple setup so there is no really hustle of like figuring out all the stuff besides product the stuff besides product should be like that small really small and of course competing over and interested audience these are another foundations of making this partnership work um marketing results tone of courses ton of YouTube videos people were starting to review the whole process with combination of server and Jasper all over the YouTube and the serp domination this is another crazy thing because uh out of these 3 000 affiliates every single one create that surface your review targeting keyword surface your review which made us really dominate the serbs with the message that we wanted because we they are our affiliate so they are talking our language they are explaining Surfer so their users will buy it because they have commission so every single review you will find well obviously will be positive and we didn't do anything to make it happen they did it so the commission paid off that we we not only didn't have to do any marketing but it was really like a Snowball Effect every new review showed up like crazy we didn't have to incentivize it at all so Partnerships Revenue I will stand here and look by myself as well because these charts are pretty inspiring as you can see 3.5 million last year it was over 30 percent of our Revenue in total at server and it was all brought only by commissions that were tracked so not I'm not counting what I don't know right but quite simply give significant amount of people skips these links so 30 of Revenue of server General through Partnerships so well it feels like it was worth it not only from the integration with Jasper but also with the other Affiliates that gave us a huge boost not only with sales but with authority we were like new on the market no one knows us and then boom one two three five ten hundred five hundred influencers in the industry people who are running courses and so on they started to talk about server they had incentive of course 30 recurring commission but who cares it's much it's still much cheaper than asking them for doing a promotional materials so it's it's definitely a good idea for any well any bootstrap SAS company at the very beginning to start tapping into someone else's Authority someone else's audience you don't have the audience you don't have the authority they have both audience and authority to sell to that audience so let's summarize it I showed you the types you start with the Affiliates ideally then move to something more serious like partnership integration with with another product uh of course the evaluation and I will recall the URL it's surferseo.com SAS open and you will get all of these questions just ask honestly ask yourself these questions that you will find out is it a good idea to to pursue that integration or it is better to skip and and use another one and then the results they speak for itself so thank you [Applause]

Introduction hello everyone my guest today today is michelle suskey he's a digital marketer with a love for seo he co-founded surfer that's surfersio.com and has been evangelizing the product and data driven approach to optimization ever since he's trained hundreds of seo folks copywriters and marketers on on-page seo writing and content marketing strategies you ready to take the top excuse me are you ready to take it to the top yeah of course okay let's get started so tell us surfer seo i mean what is it this is like an ahrefs tool or semrush or what oh no no no it's absolutely different approach like these tools are focused more on keyword research and on backlinks analysis while we are more like a data-driven tool that gathers a lot of information from pages that are ranking the top 10 to tell you whether you are missing something or overusing when it comes to content and these days we are drifting more into let's say content intelligence term that will be more about uh producing content that will satisfy both parties google algorithm and the end user so more of like a clear scope competitor oh yes you hit the nailing ahead okay got it cool that helps my head get in the right spot so now i know exactly what you guys do so so if someone just hired an intern that's writing content for their site the intern doesn't know seo they can use your tool to make sure they write the article in a way that's going to rank really well yeah absolutely that's all about it okay what are customers paying on average to use your technology um it's between 29 and 199 but the pricing we currently have is well we figured it out like a couple of years ago like when we started 2017-18 and it hasn't changed much so in general this this this pricing model we have is really not user friendly and doesn't help us monetize and doesn't help users to get the best plan for themselves so yeah uh in general there is a variate variety of plans however uh they're not you know too flexible and Monthly recurring revenue amiha what was monthly recurring revenue last month uh let me check precisely oh we just hit 250.4 congrats so 250 000 a month in revenue yeah and how many customers Currently serving 4000 customers it's about four thousand customers four thousand when did you launch the business uh we started the beta version in 2017 and it was released absolutely for free and it took us almost a year from the beta release to get the first client paying um Bootstrapped and since then we've been well we are bootstrap company so uh that was pretty a struggle at the beginning to uh figure the budget out and yeah until we've become profitable it took us a year and a half maybe Profits and so when you say profiling of 250 if you make 250 000 a month how much will go to the bottom minus profits um the yeah so we try to spend no more than 40 percent uh of uh the recurring revenue so we have this pillow uh that will help us uh through hard times when they come because obviously you have to be prepared when you scale up like right now we have 30 people and uh the biggest chunk of our spend is on salaries as we are trying to build only a player's team and so on so we pay them well and this is the biggest uh enough element of our payroll so yeah we are just building a massive pillow to you know be safe 40 profits on 250 000 per month is about a hundred thousand dollars a month in free cash flow going into your bank account every month to build that pillow is that about right yeah and you're bootstrapped just to be clear yeah that's right i love that congratulations yeah that was a tough decision for us we almost got uh into the vc carousel we were we were that close uh all the papers were lying on the on the desk but they just uh delayed uh the cash and there was like you have to start you have to move uh to another city where we have a headquarters so we did and we started in in september 2018 i mean the business for real because for a year it was a side project and before it was internal tool for the agency but yeah it was september and we we had a deal and they just didn't come with cash uh on the date that we agreed and in the meantime how much how much cash should they commit oh that was like it's confidential i think so well but it didn't be a number but it didn't happen right and you don't have to name the investor how much cash did they where they say they were going to give you uh it was six figures okay and and did you you actually signed a term sheet and or a safe whatever you were raising on yeah yeah we we had a term sheet but in the end uh it wasn't uh finalized just because we didn't receive the money and in the meantime we started selling early access subscriptions that gave us this initial boost of cash and that actually saved us from going on to the you know this vc world when you have to pump pump pump and then you know get higher revenue how much how much revenue did the agency do before you launched surfer seo so in 2016 what was agency revenue oh i don't know because i was the head of seo of the agency so i'm not the owner of the agency that it was born i would i was head of seo and the project was started by ceo of the agency me and my brother uh as a cto so there were two seos and one uh technical person um i'm not sure what was the revenue i i never known but we've been hiring um 12 people i think in total uh for the agency and uh working with 200 clients but well just be clear who who owns who owns server seo today do you own the equity yeah of course i'm i'm one of the founders so you're not the bureau of stakeholders but you your brother and then the ceo of the agency yeah slovak tchaikovsky i see when you and your brother put your equity together is at least 50 or no you guys are minority holders um quite a bit uh some people uh joined us to the to the equity as well do i have a majority with my brother no okay so under 50 between you two okay interesting but this is a great model because i imagine i mean did you get your first customers from the agency basically um yeah we had some contacts uh from the agency business uh because seo community in poland is not that big so almost everyone knows each other so our first clients uh were from poland uh however we had the first early access sign up from the us but the person immediately asked for a refund so that's kind of funny but other than that at the beginning we we had only clients from poland so how did you get your first hundred customers hmm there was 20 customers on early access plans so we secured a deal that they will have uh like better deal than anywhere in the future how'd you get them though um word of mouth no come on you can't have they don't just i don't just find a brand new startup and start paying you have to be intentional about how they get there we were in beta free beta for a year so they they have known us uh but how they how they find the beta um let's say we start in poland we released the beta on the seo conference there was a presentation which one data driven sem krk is from krakow uh krakow let's say yeah so that was pretty one of the biggest seo conferences in poland uh like 300-ish people uh scm krk conference yes uh that was a bit of a bit of lunch and since then uh people started using it obviously i was commenting uh on facebook groups and so on uh but actually i got a ban for self-promotion on one of the biggest seo groups seo signals lab seo signals lab that was fun and through that ban i got known uh stephen kang who is the uh the owner of that group and it turned out to be a great relationship between each other he helped me a lot with promoting the brand because after that that was actually crucial to the business at this early stage because after that ban i just reached out to him and how many people were in his group uh at the moment is nineteen thousand one nine thousand ninety thousand nine zero and nine zero yeah uh at the time it was like fifty thousand i think or maybe forty thousand how do you convince him to promote the product uh well he calls me a brown noser at some point uh when it when it comes to this uh release from the from the cage of being banned on the group but he he literally turned turned to me and say hey maybe do you want to do a pick his brain session which is something like ask me anything session and i received like over 100 questions and obviously promote a surfer there which caught a lot of eyes looking at us and another cool moment regarding that group was that our competitor cora page optimizer pro they were both founded in the us so they were well known in their communities and then we popped up as their co competitor that's who is correct can you spell it c-o-r-a okay like it's from correlation yep um and p-o-p page optimizer pro yep so so they build uh some sort of uh movement in seo that you not only have to acquire backlinks but you can also optimize your pages to help google understand better what you are about what are the missing elements uh and so on on the lower budget because on-page is the area audio control miho we've got to move forward because uh it's a quick show we only have five minutes left here so i want to get more of your story here right so i understand the first hundred customers how are you getting customers today you have four thousand still not so many ads uh i would say it's really minor but the biggest chunk is affiliate uh marketing we have established a decent affiliate program that drives uh 20 maybe 30 maybe 40 percent uh of the sales it's 30 recurring commission so they are really into uh selling our product so first it works and secondly they get big chunk of the the subscription uh we charge so uh it's like really a surf but perpetuating machine uh when it comes to sales and obviously this way we got a lot of brand ambassadors how much do you pay out to how much do you pay out to affiliates every month in their recurring fee oh i have to check but i will i will check it in a few moments so give me another question yeah no problem so so 30 rpoo 4 000 customers you're bootstrapped profitable 30 people on the team how many engineers uh 12 12 engineers and any sales how many on the sales team no no sales team oh yeah that's a good moment i'm looking for a super professional sales head of sales so yeah no sales and i would love to start it and revenue generated in okay monthly recurring revenue generated by the affiliates is roughly 25k so i had uh a little bit missed so it's like a ten percent so sorry do you that's that's what you're paying out to affiliates that's their commission or that's the revenue they've driven yeah yeah that's the commission got it so they have they make up about 80 000 monthly in revenue right now customers from affiliates as far as i'm reading these charts correctly yes yep yep wow that's okay so about 40 of your current revenue 250 000 per month sorry not 40. about 30 has been driven by affiliates over time those affiliates represent about 80 000 a month in your current revenue and you pay them out about 25 000 per month in commissions for that revenue if yeah if i if i read it correctly yes but well monthly recurring revenue 25k or maybe this is how much they generate so a third of that is how much we pay so right slightly less than that than 10k usd we pay every month yeah that's correct 10 yeah you can say eight 8 000 us dollars we pay out to the so they make up 25k only ten percent your revenue comes from affiliates yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah how many affiliates how many affiliates make at least a dollar from you each month um let's see in total we have oh gosh 400 affiliates that make at least a dollar in in total in our program but the amount of people that make at least a dollar uh is roughly a hundred okay interesting so affiliates are your main channel then right now anything else yeah uh engineering as marketing this is great uh so we released a free seo tool chrome extension uh that is used by over 200 250 000 people every day and it drives a lot of attention you can check it out keyword server it's a chrome extension uh that will tell you about search volume and we'll do some keyword research for you within the search results so it's like quickly how do you get people how do you get people from using your free chrome extension to actually hitting the paywall into a paid plan so there was super popular keywords everywhere extension that become paid and in a two weeks from that point we released our to fill the gap of a free extension that shows the search volume of a keyword so we just hit uh in the right moment with our engineering resources but how do you take 250 000 free users and convert them to like at least show them your paid plan do you get their email address and you email market to them no no no it's absolutely free and the only uh conversion we get from them is a tiny little button that it is powered by servers so if you want more data check it out so it's not like you know aggressive you're doing three million a year today or twenty two hundred thousand dollars a month how much were you doing a month a year ago um the spike is pretty pretty big a year ago it was uh here slightly less than 100 it was 82 000 in december 2019 wow that's an incredible growth right yeah it was like uh sometimes it was even 20 month to month and we have never experienced a month that was uh slowly slower growing than a month before so growth is growing what would you value the company at today um it's 100 times the monthly recurring revenue am i right i'm not a specialist uh whether it's your personal just you personally what would you buy oh you can't buy it well that was my question what would you what would you value it at today i have no clue i have no clue it would it should be like really irrational amount uh for us to sell it because it's more like uh not it's not only making money but it's rather a lifestyle do you pay dividends out when it makes money no no no no no we are in investing everything to hire more good quality so how do you how do you get rich if if you can only wait for an exit but you never want to sell like how do you get rich if there's no dividends from cash flow well the opportunity will come for sure but obviously we pay ourselves as a salary for a year we have been not paying a salary but now we do and it's quite all right so it's fine to keep on building it keep on growing and hiring more people last few questions churn monthly churn what's that quite high actually but there is a problem with calculating the turn in stripe and we have no great metrics to be honest because we have a paid trial which is one us dollar per week and the this is really easy to enter however it's counted into the churn so uh those values are well i don't know it's hard to measure let me ask you a different question how much do Customer acquisition cost you pay to acquire a new customer that pays you 30 bucks a month i have no clue do you spend money do you spend money on ads uh a little bit and the roi is more or less 10x 10x calculated against what like what's your payback period typically like ltv is like 800 dollars i think yeah it is 800 in ltv and if you calculate an roi of an ad it will be uh 10 bucks yeah so 880 dollars to acquire which means you get paid back in like a year you know three four months if it's 30 bucks a month i think so very good let's uh let's wrap up with the famous five number one favorite business book oh uh grade by choice number two is their ceo you're following or studying uh is slovak czechoslovakia yco no besides your own oh [Music] no any none number three what's your what's your favorite online tool for building a business facebook number for how many hours of sleep to get every night eight and what's your situation married single kids yeah i'm married and i have a son you're in the hall oh very cool how old are you uh i'm 30 30 years old last question what's something you wish you when you were 20. [Music] that i skipped university skip school guys there you have it surfer seo they were doing just 82 000 a month in revenue a year ago now doing 250 000 a month in revenue that's obviously a super healthy growth rate and they've done it all bootstrapped they spun it out an agency the agency's ceo and then mihaw and his two brothers own the equity in the business 30 people on the team right now serving over 4 000 customers growing using affiliates chrome extensions communities and more mihawk thanks for taking us to the top thanks for having me one more thing before you go we have a brand new show every thursday at 1 pm central it's called shark tank for sas we call it deal or bust one founder comes on three hungry buyers they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards their expenses their revenue arpu cac ltv you name it they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live it is fun to watch every thursday 1 pm central additionally remember these recorded founder interviews go live we release them here on youtube every day at 2 p.m central to make sure you don't miss any of that make sure you click the subscribe button below here on youtube the big red button and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live i wouldn't want you to miss breaking news in the sas world whether it's an acquisition a big fundraise a big sale a big profitability statement or something else i don't want you to miss it additionally if you want to take this conversation deeper and further we have by far the largest private slack community for b2b sas founders you want to get in there we've probably talked about your tool if you're running a company or your firm if you're investing you can go in there and quickly search and see what people are saying sign up for that at nathan lacka dot com forward slash slack in the meantime i'm hanging out with you here on youtube i'll be in the comments for the next 30 minutes feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode if you enjoyed it click the thumbs up we get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive i am on these shows but i do it so that we can all learn we have to counter those people we got to push them away click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that i appreciate your guys's support all right i'll be in the comments see ya