How Hopscotch Is Building Affordable SaaS Onboarding Tours with 3 Early Customers (Interview with Founder Cam Sloan)

Introduction and Background

Nathan Latka

00:00Hey, folks. My guest today is Cam Sloan. He's a Canadian entrepreneur who works a full stack developer until he was laid off in 2019. Instead of finding a new job, he said, you know what? I'm gonna start freelancing, and his goal was eventually starting a product business. Today, he juggled both as he works towards building a profitable software company. He's building hopscotch.club. Cam, you ready to take us to the top?

Cam Sloan

00:22>> Yeah. Let's do it.

What Is Hopscotch

Nathan Latka

00:23Alright. What is Hopscotch?

Cam Sloan

00:26>> So Hopscotch is an app for doing interactive customer onboarding tours for SaaS companies.

Differentiation from Competitors Like Pendo

Nathan Latka

00:34And you're a developer, so I'm sure you looked at other solutions out there before you started building this. What are you building that people can't currently get at tools like Pendo or other onboarding tools?

Cam Sloan

00:46>> Yeah. So in terms of right now, you know, still an early stage product. And so in terms of like product differentiation, I wouldn't say that it's quite where I'd like it to be with Hopscotch, but there's another huge problem in this market is that all these other solutions have gone so far up market that they're really inaccessible to the majority of people who are trying to get their startups up and running. So the pricing in a

01:11>> lot of these tools will start at like $300 a month, $500 a month. And so that's kind of where I'm starting with competing. And then, you know, as I catch up on feature parity and then go beyond that, there will be some interesting plays on the product side.

Vision for the Product Beyond Feature Parity

Nathan Latka

01:26Well, that's what I'm asking. Sell me the future. Like, you you didn't do this to just build a copy of something that already existed. You believe something, like, should exist that currently doesn't exist. What it once you reach feature parity, like, what are you gonna do differently that no one's doing right now?

Cam Sloan

01:40>> Yeah, totally. So a lot of, you know, there's a lot of complaints and issues with product tours, and I think a lot of it is warranted. You know, they can be too long, they can be just in the way, maybe they're there when you don't want them to be, but then when you do want that information, they're not available. And so a lot of what I intend to build with Hopscotch is the ability to, you know,

02:08>> recall product tours at the right time and kinda have these subtleties of being able to make it a better experience for the end user. So if someone does want tours and they are that type of person who wants a little bit of hand holding while they onboard into your app, then they can get it. And if they aren't, then we should get out of their way. And so I think there's a lot missing in the market

02:30>> there. So that's kinda where I'm planning on going with some of the functionality side.

Early Access and Pre-Revenue Status

Nathan Latka

02:34And right now on the site, I can join a wait list. Does that mean you're pre revenue? You're just building off demand right now?

Cam Sloan

02:41>> I have a few early access customers. And so, yeah, pretty much pre revenue as I'm just trying to build out, yeah, a product that's gonna work for the current customers before I really open up the floodgates there.

Nathan Latka

02:55How many current are testing?

Cam Sloan

02:58>> I have three paying customers and I have, you know, a handful more that are kind of piloting it out, seeing if it's something that they wanna use, but I wouldn't say actively like heavy users.

Nathan Latka

03:10Well, congrats. The hardest one is the first one. So you're already up to three. That's great. What are they paying per month?

Cam Sloan

03:17>> So I have a couple different like, I'm really testing pricing and it's really depending on the company size and scale. And so, you know, I have someone paying $20 a month. I have another paying 99 per month then somewhere

Nathan Latka

03:32in between.

Cam Sloan

03:36>> I'm figuring that out. It will either be a combination of like number of seats and or like number of tours or potentially number of monthly active users because that's kind of where my costs are gonna scale. So I'm still figuring that out right now. It's just like a set price. Know, if you're an indie hacker and you wanna, you know, just try it out, then it's gonna be like $20 a month. But if you're a business

04:01>> and you wanna remove the Hopscotch branding and you're kind of up and running, then that's when you look at like 99 per month.

Nathan Latka

04:07This is the beauty of launching, right? You gotta figure out the pricing and it's all manual when you start and then you'll figure out a sweet spot and then put up a pricing page, right?

Cam Sloan

04:15>> Yeah, yeah. I really like the strategy of kinda launching quietly or like doing all this in the background and onboarding customers manually to start with because then I can have this like data and this information to know how I should go about it when I put it up. And I'm not just gonna be, you know, trying to guess from metrics. Like I can know from experience of talking to these people like that. Hopefully I'm coming out

04:39>> with something that makes sense from the get go.

Nathan Latka

04:42Now Cam, you're bootstrapping, right? You haven't raised.

Cam Sloan

04:45>> Yeah. That's right.

How Cam Found His First Customers

Nathan Latka

04:47And and how did you get these first great customers? Where'd you find them?

Cam Sloan

04:53>> Honestly, most of the work that I've been doing, I share publicly on Twitter. And so Twitter has been really helpful, even though most of the people who follow me are not like great customer fit. They will often like refer other people who are asking about it and they'll mention the product. So that's been pretty cool. And then also just getting some natural like sign ups through Google, even though I haven't put a ton of work into

05:18>> that, it's kinda starting to rank albeit at low, but starting to rank for some of the keywords like interactive product tours and product tours.

Getting Laid Off in 2019

Nathan Latka

05:25Yeah. That's important. I mean, SEO is important. So take me back to that moment, know, now we understand what you're working on. Take me back to that moment in 2019 when you were laid off. I mean, what was going through your head when it happened?

Cam Sloan

05:37>> Oh, man. I it was I was in a pretty good position where I wanted to go and do my own thing, but I I wasn't quite ready. And I feel like you're never really ready. And so I wanted to have some more time with this job, but then it kinda got lifted out from under me. And so that was the perfect excuse to just go start doing my own thing. I, so I felt pretty lucky that

06:03>> I had some savings built up and I was in a place where I was just ready to go and try it. At the very worst, I would go and find another job. And so that was, you know, it was a mix of like really scared, but also like what's the worst that can happen? And it kind of gave me the kick that I needed.

Nathan Latka

06:21Cam, how old were you in 2019 when you when you you lost the job?

Cam Sloan

06:26>> I guess I would have been 31.

Savings, Runway and Living Expenses

Nathan Latka

06:2931. Okay. So this is like a a key thing, which is anytime you wanna leave a full time gig and do your own thing, you try and build the cash buffer to give yourself some runway, right? Until your new thing starts making money. How did you think about that? So you had some cash saved up. I mean, do you mind me asking about how much you've saved or how much like life runway you had?

Cam Sloan

06:47>> Yeah. I don't remember exactly because like between investments and such, but let's say like, I don't know, between $40,000 and $60,000 Canadian. And then I also knew that I was gonna get some freelance work that was gonna be coming in. And so that really like helped me to know that I was gonna be able to keep, you know, cash flow positive as opposed to just going into burn mode.

Nathan Latka

07:13Yeah. And and another, you know, the key thing is obviously how much you save, but it's also how much you keep. So it's about keeping your expenses really low as an entrepreneur, especially an indie hacker. How low up there in Canada were you able to keep your total living expenses per month back back in 2019?

Cam Sloan

07:27>> So I don't track like super closely on this stuff, but I do share, I was sharing a one bedroom apartment with my partner and it's around 2 k per month. And then, you know, maybe you would spend another thousand dollars or so on top of that. But you know, sometimes that goes another like $2,000 a month. But yeah, I do try to keep my expenses low in comparison to like, even while I was billed, while I

07:57>> was salaried, I would try to keep my expenses fairly low and stay in a relatively affordable place. That may sound expensive in some parts of the world, but in Toronto, that's kind of like entry level for a one bedroom. So yeah, I was trying to just keep it low and I still continue to do that and, and just especially now, yeah, without consistent income, it's important to just keep chugging along at a good burn rate.

Nathan Latka

08:25Well, yeah. I mean, $40,000 to $50,000 saved, spending between like $2,000 and $4,000 a month, you have plenty of runway in terms of life expenses. I mean, what I'm excited for is I'm waiting for you to put up that tweet, maybe later this year or early next year that says, making more from my side project than I did at my full time job in 2019. Like, that's the magic tweet.

Freelance Income Surpassing Full-Time Salary

Cam Sloan

08:44>> Yeah. And I'll say this, like, in terms of, you know, when I quit, like, I have much more runway now because of freelancing and doing some contract work as well, which was kind of unexpected. I wanted to just like, you know, have it float my side project, but it's gone above and beyond with that. Working about half the year on my contracting freelance stuff was able to surpass my revenue at my full time job. So, yeah,

09:14>> kind of deal this year has been similar. Like I'm already on track to go past where I was full time and it's only June. And so, you know, if I take on more contracts, that'll be just added runway. And so really stretches that out and really means like, I can go at my own pace with my business. I can make my own decisions, my own rules. I don't have to answer to investors. And there's a lot

09:37>> of great things that come with that.

Nathan Latka

09:38Mhmm. Cam, can I ask what your full time salary was back in 2018 when you were working?

Cam Sloan

09:44>> Yeah. So it was just over 100 k Canadian, probably like $1.25 or so. So yeah, like roughly around there.

Nathan Latka

09:54I just love stories like this. If we have someone listening right now, stuck in a job they hate and maybe they get laid off or they need inspiration, they looked into a thing like this and they go, you know what? I can do it. I can hustle on freelance work. I can launch a software side project. I'll be fine. Keep my living expenses low and they'll be the next cam.

Advice for Developers Wanting to Go Independent

Cam Sloan

10:12>> Yeah. I really, you know, I see a lot of people trying to do it in a while they're still in a full time job and they burn themselves out. And I was kinda trying to do that too. And I just can't, like I can't go all day at a full time job and then all night and weekends, it burns me out. So this is like a really viable option for a huge number of people. I know

10:34>> it's not everyone that can say this, but if you're a developer, if you're a designer and you're looking to go become an entrepreneur anyway, then like probably one of the best ways to start is to go and find some freelance clients. It's gonna get you comfortable talking with people, doing sales and you know, selling yourself, selling your product services. And it's just a great way to kinda like transition. And then you can work like half the

10:56>> hours or less or more, however much you want to, and then kinda like manage your runway accordingly.

How Cam Found Freelance Clients

Nathan Latka

11:03Cam, where did you get freelance work from? Do you go on, like list yourself on Top or one of these sites or how did you do it?

Cam Sloan

11:10>> I, you know, looking when I first started looking into freelancing, I was like, oh, I gotta go on Toptal or, you know, Upwork or something. But like those, I actually was lucky that I didn't get accepted to any of those. And so I ended up, my first client was the company that laid me off. I helped them for like another set number of hours on some work that they had. And then I found another company through

11:38>> a friend that is in the city here, who is another web developer. I just let my network know, you know, on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on like Slack groups. Just said like, hey, I'm a freelancer now. And like so many people don't do that, but if you just put it out there, then it starts coming your way. And I've been lucky enough that like, you know, you only need one or two clients like every so often, know,

12:01>> I think I only needed like five or six throughout the year last year to make a decent wage. And so, you know, it's really not that difficult. It's just getting, it's a flywheel getting that up and running and knowing, you know, who to reach out to, you know, maybe an old boss or an old coworker and then go from there.

Nathan Latka

12:22Yep, yep, that's exactly right. Whatifstory hey. Real quick question. I'm very curious. What is this collection you have over your right shoulder under the light?

Cam Sloan

12:30>> Oh, yeah. So that is a bunch of kinda guitar music pedals. And so I have over here some keyboards. Mostly run them through keyboards and I used to do a lot of electronic music production, kind of ambient chill out music production. And nowadays they mostly sit up looking pretty, but, know, I do try and play with them every so often.

Famous Five: Books, Founders, Tools and Habits

Nathan Latka

12:54Well, you you seem like a very chill guy on on the verge of creating a very interesting SaaS product. So we're rooting for you. Let's Let's wrap up here with the famous five. Number one, what's your favorite book?

Cam Sloan

13:07>> So I am actually, I think the book that I just discovered recently called Hell Yeah or No by Derek Sivers might be one of my favorite business books. Yeah, really enjoying it.

Nathan Latka

13:19Number two, is there a founder you're following or studying right now?

Cam Sloan

13:24>> Another Derek actually, Derrick Reimer who's building SavvyCal is kind of doing this whole solo, from trying like to do it all himself, product design, marketing, at least in the beginning. And it's really inspirational to me. That's kind of how I'm trying to do everything as well.

Nathan Latka

13:40Number three, what's your favorite online tool for building Hopscotch?

Cam Sloan

13:45>> I gotta say it's probably Figma. It just is so nice, so easy to design in.

Nathan Latka

13:50Number four, how many hours of sleep do get every night?

Cam Sloan

13:55>> Varies. Four, six, eight. It depends how stressed I am.

Nathan Latka

14:00And what's your situation? Married, single, kiddos?

Cam Sloan

14:04>> Single, just like, well, with my partner here, but no kids. Yeah. Not married. And yeah.

Nathan Latka

14:10Alright.

Cam Sloan

14:11>> No plans.

14:12>> Yeah. I'm 33 now.

14:14>> 33. Last question.

Nathan Latka

14:15What's something you wish you knew when you were 20?

Cam Sloan

14:20>> I wish that I knew that you don't have to go do college education, the standard path. You know, I was really trying to do all that kind of by the books and fighting against my creative self, my urge to do self learning online and this type of stuff. I wish I just

14:40>> own journey and and try and make it gonna be the best way that you can live your life and and enjoy it.

Nathan Latka

14:49Guys, there we have it. Sloan, he was laid off in 2019 from a job where he was making over 6 figures, over a $100,000. He had saved up 40 k by keeping his expenses low. So he said, you know what? I'm gonna start my own thing. And it's a combination between freelance and his software company called hopscotch.club. He's now landed his first three customers that pay us between 20 and $100 per month. He believes there's a

15:10better way to do product onboarding. That's what he's building at hopscotch.club. Check it out. Cam, thanks for taking us to the top.

Cam Sloan

15:16>> Thanks, Nathan.

Nathan Latka

15:19One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1PM central. It's called shark tank for SaaS. We call it deal or bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers, they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back end dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU, CAC, LTV, you name it, they share it. And the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch every Thursday, 1PM

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