How Richpanel CEO Amit RG grew to $4M revenue and 200 customers in 2024.

guys launched in 2018 is now working with 200 e-commerce Brands processing and helping them get support questions answered faster he ended last year without a two million dollar run rate that's an average ACV of 10 grand a year hoping to double this year to 4 million you raise a 2 million pre-seed around back in 2020 at a 20 million post from Sequoia now raising a 5 million seat it caught a 30 or 35 million pre both from customers and to additional potential traditional VCS again building Rich panel to get rid of these horrible support experiences you and I know and we're checking out with most e-commerce brands hey folks my guest today as I meet RG he's a CEO and co-founder at richpanel.com under his leadership the company is going to over 2 000 brands in three years he leads everything product engineering at the company and is obsessed with their motto the best service is no service I mean you ready to take us to the top I am what does that mean the best service is no service um my my Funda is simple when I started the company uh you know if you look at any business you look at their customer service customers usually contacting about the same you know same seven to eight types of issues but customers but businesses are still using agents to handle these issues and if you contrast it with which is stupid and if you contrast that with what happens in Amazon where I've bought like 50 items this year maybe more and I've never contacted them once the difference is that Amazon is productizing each of these contact reasons you know if I want to like return an order cancel an order edit anything in my order I can do that within Amazon I can manage my subscriptions they now have situations where if somebody forgets a coupon code they have a flow for it right so that's the kind of interfaces that we build for other companies and then you know you basically eliminate all the contacts and customers able to like self-resolve business are able to scale it's a win-win that's awesome now when you came on the show back in July of 2020 you told me you had 70 customers and you're doing about 90 000 a month in Revenue so you just passed a million dollar run rate I think give us an update on the business where are you at today we we crossed two million dollars in December of 2020 and we are on path to take this year to like 4.5 million so sorry last year what did you finish at you finished it at 2 million right a little about two million yes oh that's great and how many customers 210 customers with the ACV of around 10 000. wow okay so 200k that makes tons of sense walk me through what a customer is paying you for and if you can you use a real customer as of today a customer would pay us for cell service resolutions approximately like one dollar per resolve and they pay us for Ticket because we have both the modules we have the agent help desk for which you pay by tickets and we have uh the sell service where you pay by sell service results where an agent wasn't needed so if it's a ticket you pay approximately 20 cents per decade if it's a you know self-resolve you pay like one dollar so what we both have vested interest to do more sell service results and I think when we last spoke you said you were looking at raising a two million round but you weren't sure if you were going to close it or not you had been bootstrapped previously what'd you end up deciding to do I did raise uh two million dollars from Sequoia to 20 million dollar valuation I did that in 2020. uh we also got selected y combinator but we decided to not go ahead with it because because this thing happened like one week before YC YC was all remote I'm a big YC fan but it didn't make sense you know to dilute so much uh when we were already getting they wanted what seven seven percent for 125k yeah so they put you they give you a standard valuation of like 2.1 post and the the disadvantage that ether mainly is it was remote so you don't build a network right when you go into a thing like YC the major takeaway or the major benefit is the network and the kind of people you meet uh that that doesn't happen or Zoom calls and like the Zoom sessions where 100 people are coming together yeah now obviously Sequoia put money in just at the same time at a 20 million valuation YC wants a two million valuation I mean ultimately did you want to do YC but Sequoia blocked it because it's a massive haircut on evaluation not really I think Sequoia was very open about it lots of other people in the same uh you know cohort like being funded at the same time they did decide my friends did decide to do with YC it's acquired no problem I think they're like very cool as investors very open-minded if you have a reason to do it they never block I just uh spoke with a few of my existing customers where you know they wanted in at the previous valuation because I'm doing like my next round but they wanted in at the previous valuation and the reason is because these people are like extremely influential they're people like you that can like promote this out of Rich panel so they were like you know we you know we are your customers in the last two years give a sin and we want to like you know work very closely with you because each time we do a catch-up for one hour catch up over like a review call we're like 45 minutes is discussing personal life right we're just helping each other grow and like whatever both the founders both have like similar problems and like similar that we go through so 45 minutes is that and they're like you know we want to invest in each other's success and they did this and I went to Sequoia and they're like yeah absolutely cool you know it makes complete sense to have these people as well oh what's going on there YouTube good to see you guys now imagine this you love watching these interviews with SAS Founders but imagine if we took all of the valuation data out from over 2807 interviews I've done manually saves you a lot of time well we've done this we've built the into the beautiful interface inside of founder path check this out I'll show you how you can access this in a second but you log in you connect your stripe account you see your valuation real time you can see what it changed over the past 88 days and even set goals for evaluation this year now the secret evaluation is there's many different ways to value a SAS business so the reason you're going to see three or four different evaluations inside of your founder path dashboard this is all free by the way is because depending on who's doing the buying of your SAS company you're going to get a different valuation a VC is going to pay a different valuation private Equity Firm is different if you're going to do a minority sale that's different and if you sell the whole business that's a different valuation you can see all those when I hover over here here right so the teal is what a VC would pay yellow is what private equity and red is if you sold the whole thing outright now what's cool about this is this is not built off random data again you guys hear these interviews on YouTube all these datas are built from real-time valuation data points Founders share with us on the show so traction 1.2 million seed round 3.7 raise they sold 22 percent of their business go in here and filter by the event maybe you only want to see companies that have sold the whole business well here are a bunch that have been acquired the valuation and the multiple maybe you're going out right now and you're raising your seed round well go in here and look at all this recent seed deals that went down what they raised what valuation they raised at and what percent that they sold there's never been a larger data set of SAS valuation than what you can get now inside of founder path and we're thrilled to bring it to you all right we're gonna go back to the YouTube video here in a second but if you want to check this tool out if you want to jump in and sign up you can check it out for free to get your valuation at this link this link founderpath.com forward slash products forward slash evaluations or if you go to founderpath.com and hover over products click on get your valuation here and go ahead and sign up to give it a whirl again all that valuation data live right inside the platform I hope to see you there all right let's jump back into the interview how much are you raising right now so I'm doing a 3.5 million dollar round uh actually five million dollar round with uh like us with an extension seed extension and I'm doing like a 500K round for uh with the angels but I started off like with like three 3.5 but just after my two calls that I did with VCS they were like you know you need to take at least five your businesses at a decent scale so we want to take you five and then you can do your a series they understood why I'm raising like a small round they respect it and they're like if you want speed you get it but we want minimum that much ownership in the company so we were like okay yeah and what is the minimum ownership they want so you know they're looking at like you know whatever if we do like if you close a dividend at 30 35 at current stage then they're like we want like substantial percent uh it's not about the ownership there are few forms that are not willing to write check sizes below that if that makes sense no it makes it makes total sense I mean this is these folks in seed rounds they want 15 20 of the company so even if you don't need that much money they still want to figure out how to get to 15 to 20 so hearing your math it's a five million dollar check into a 35 million dollar post money valuation 30 30 pre-money 35 posts it gets them 15 20 of the company that's what they want yeah yeah I mean why not just push back and say guys listen either you're giving me less money because I don't want to get this diluted or you're not getting in the company I I don't do that you know I'm I'm actually never being the guy that feel you know over indexed on valuation I over index on the partner I just did a call with one of the partners and I made my Sequoia partner write to him saying that if you need reference on Amit then you know he's a stand-up dude just you know call me for anything and that we see replied back to my partner it's acquire that this guy came so prepared that it was mind-blowing you know I was I was mind blown so what I do is like I try to watch the partner like I would spend a few hours watching their videos and I don't even ask for like 15 introductions I'm like you know I'm going to go after these three or four and I'm going to like you know I'm going to aim to shoot it like I'm going to aim to like bring it home because I think that's the right way you're going to work with this man for the next man or woman for the next 10 to 15 years very very important that you choose the right person to work with so that's that's what I'm doing with my angels as well you know people that I love people that are want the best in you and are like will challenge you you can brainstorm with them and they also understand like the macroeconomics but they can like go down to the ground level and also brainstorm when you're you know stuck with something those are like the ideal Partners I want yep fair enough fair enough take me back a little bit here to the ACV conversation so when we spoke last you had 70 customers paying 1500 a month now you've got way more customers 200 but they're paying half as much per month so are you moving down Market yes yes because what happened is we did an analysis even today by the way Jason I just gave us Nathan my bad even today uh we we are going to reduce our pricing even further so when I'm saying that we're going to cross 4 million the number of customers are going to like probably triple or quadruple because with 3x more expensive than the competition and we as SEALs team were making a mistake because we're so confident of the product and the value it delivers we're making it too expensive to sign up with they get value later on but there are so many people that just shy away or don't try the product just because of that high price tag so I want to change that model I want to get them in at a lower price then invest in CSM then invest in delivering value and then you know getting them on like higher tiers or like you know more services I think that's the right way so I want to how do you get how do you get your first customer paying you a hundred thousand dollars a year what do you probably have to provide for them when you say that what did I do to get a hundred thousand or what well what is it oh don't name the customer but what does your largest customer pay you today I think I have around that price 100 000 I have like three four customers that pay hundred thousand and they've all closed like in the last quarter I've started go after them and it just makes sense you know the only thing the only thing stopping us was not knocking on the right door but I mean just to be clear the reason they're paying that much is because they're processing so many it's based off number of transactions per month right yes yes it's number of transactions per month and number of self results per month yeah number of sales results per month so how many how many self-presolving like support tickets are you resolving for someone paying you 100 a year so you know it's it's it boy roughly boils to like 50 000 so if you take like a hundred thousand it's like eight thousand per month is what they're paying and I will have to do like you know fifteen thousand results for them uh for them to justify that but it won't be fifteen thousand it would be more like I'm doing like 10 000 results for them and they also are paying me additional five thousand dollars for oh sorry you know they're also paying me like a portion of that for agent head desk yeah no this makes tons of sense so the question I was asking you I'll just make it a bigger number now Patty like just think product wise for a second what these customers want what do you have to give them where you think they won't even blink at paying you a million dollars a year go to a bigger customer that's it what okay what if you can't what if you have to take some of the current customers paying 100 Grand a month and you have to give them so much value that you were able to upsell them to a million what other things would you sell them I I cannot I cannot because so many of my customers today are at a DMV of 10 million or like 50 million e-commerce guys you know the margins are notoriously low if if a guy that's making like if a man that's making like 50 million a year doing e-commerce maybe he's netting like 2 million three million I can ask him to give me a million that would be stupid uh so my value to him is limited so the way that I can ask a million dollars is to get go after a person or go after a company that is doing 500 million gme a billion dollars in GMA and that's what I'm doing so you never if 500 millions are targeted you're basically saying you never want to be more than 0.2 percent of their annual expenses I've never done that kind of a mat I'm just saying like you know if if you have to do that kind of a math I'll tell you like the order to decade ratio right so depending if you're like uh let's let's do the math if you're like a billion dollar company uh you're doing like you know 800 or 80 million a month you're going to do 40 40 million tickets a month with a 50 Ratio or you know by that stage will be like too efficient so you'll be doing like 15 million tickets a month right and with 15 million tickets if I charge you like 10 cents that will be like 150 000. uh for for that month and then on an annual basis you'll pay me like 1.8 uh million but how many brands are there that do that how many brands are there that do a billion in gmv I can actually forget 10 cents I can even ask for like 50 cents right so if I do 50 cents then I'll make like 5 million of that brand right and by that same token if I go after like 100 million dollar brand or a 200 million dollar brand then they will be able to pay me like a million dollars but I mean how many of those are there how many how many 100 million brands are there I didn't do that much but I can tell you that there are 50 000 stores that do more than a million dollars right so one on Amazon or where stores where everywhere like e-commerce stores that are doing like more than a million is 50 000 in the world right interesting what's your Source on that how did you get that number so I pipe candy is One Source pipe candy uh then built with I did Alexa ranking and then what else what else Shopify plus are like 15 000 stores so that's like a straightforward math uh but I think I got the number from pipe candy we can look at it interesting how much is Shopify all the fifteen thousand Shopper Shopify stores how much do they process by themselves each month uh which fifty the fifty thousand one are the ones that are 15 000 Shopify are Shopify plus they pay Shopify plus twenty four thousand dollars so they they must be doing at least a couple of million dollars to justify their 25k fee 24 I see so they are directly in my target market then there is woocommerce then there is Magento and that's just the e-commerce has a vertical I'm just starting at the e-commerce I just took that as an opportunity because 2020 was the year of covet we knew that this is the vertical we have to start with but in quarter four we are going to launch another verticals this quarter how close are you ever I mean everything you turn around is about support support how close are you to the actual transaction the actual dollars getting paid on my platform yeah why would I do that I'm asking are you close to the actual dollars being transacted no no I mean the dollars get transacted in the sense like the agents like there are things that you could do within the widget and check out like it can give you a recommendation I mean you have an example on your websites a customer says I'm looking for a pair of running shoes under 300 your Bot responds how about these and there's a buy now button under two options if they buy one of those and it's like a Shopify checkout or the Magento checkout I'm not processing it uh and by the way Shopify and others are getting very strict about who's processing this payment because they want to control it yeah they want to control it they want their cut right so that's what their business is the world where you use the support product as a wedge to eventually get into your own Payment Processing no no I I wouldn't do that see my vision is very simple I don't even look at zendes press test all of these as competitors our real competitor is the 80 billion dollars BPO Market that has to stop existing I mean it's never a pleasure calling like an airline being on hold for 30 minutes and still not getting solution do you think the CEO of United the CEO of Southwest doesn't want to help you of course they want to help you but the technology is so limited they need to do what Uber has done they need to do what Amazon has done they need to get to a stage where their product handles 95 of the issues and only five percent come to them when the issue is only five percent then these people will not be somewhere in India or Philippines they will be right here in the headquarters these agents will have the permission Authority and the know-how to actually resolve the question then and there it's a great vision listen I'm on board I love it um I guess give me more of the team and the team information today how much how many folks are full-time 32 people 32 people yeah I should know that number but 31 or 32 yeah and how many are engineers 15 16. interesting and do you have an inside sales team at this price point or it's too cheap no it is we do have like two uh sales people uh only two two account execs that bring in like all the revenue they what's their quota fifty thousand per month of AR is what they have to one five or five oh five oh 50 000 of new AR per month so 600 000 of AR per year Yes actually it's a little more than that maybe it's six thousand Mr so you know 180 would do 600 one is doing like 780 but that's that's what they have to bring in yes got it that makes a lot of sense um very interesting well listen um we're out of time here I love the growth let's wrap up here with the famous five number one what's your favorite book I'm liking 12 rules of life I just started it today 12 Roots rules of life well rules of Life by Jordan Peterson number two is there a CEO you're following or studying I love Elon Musk I aspire to be like him so yeah number four how many hours of sleep do you get every night off later I've been getting three or four hours but I feel very refreshed it's it's willingly willingly I'm working myself yeah all right I skipped number three what's your favorite online tool for building Rich panel oh my God number of uh and then what's your situation married single kids uh married to Rich parents Rich parents the baby and that's all and how and how old are you I am 33 34 sorry 34 I became 34 in December happy late birthday last question something you wish you knew when you were 20. uh thing that's a tough one so many things so many things take more risks uh you know make make better friends and be more Unapologetic guys launched in 2018 is now working with 200 e-commerce Brands processing and helping them get support questions answered faster he ended last year without a two million dollar run right that's an average ACV of 10 grand a year hoping you double this year to 4 million you raise a 2 million pariseed around back in 2020 at a 20 million post from Sequoia now raising a 5 million seat it caught a 30 or 35 million pre both from customers and to additional potential traditional VCS again building Rich panel to get rid of these horrible support experiences you and I know and are checking out with most e-commerce Brands Amit thanks for taking us to the top it's in one last thing before I leave you it's 2020 is when we started Rich panel that was a previous company we need to update that now are you just cheating when you say that because you want your growth to look more impressive or a compressed period of time or was it was 2018 really the start date but you pivoted in 2020. no I can I can show you when the rich panel ink was incorporated the first customer came in like March 2020. when did you write your first line of code for Rich panel December of 2019 Okay founded December of 2019. there we go come on and that's what I you know your website is being referred by a lot of investors I'm telling you there's a company called jet Commerce where I used to do like a million dollars I reached million dollars in the era but it was mainly customer services that I did 2018 to 19 and I completely shut that down it's it's also the thing that funded my Richmond initiative but Rich panel first customer came in March 2020. okay that's fair enough 200 bucks a month I remember the customer he's still friends with me and uh yeah I love that I love that we'll give you we'll give you late 2019 early 2020 first customer in March I'll get that updated for you but Amit thanks for taking us to the top thank you Nathan pleasure one more thing before you go we have a brand new show every Thursday at 1pm Central it's called Shark Tank for SAS we call it deal or bust one founder comes on three hungry buyers they try and do a deal live and the founder shares back-end dashboards their expenses their revenue our poo CAC LTV you name it they share it and the buyers try and make a deal live it is fun to watch every Thursday 1 p.m Central additionally remember these recorded founder interviews go live we release them here on YouTube every day at 2PM Central to make sure you don't miss any of that make sure you click the Subscribe 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hello everyone my guest today is a meet RG he's an outgoing he's outgoing and loves meeting new people and gets most ideas from listening to folks he meets he's now the founder and CEO of rich panel which is his second bootstrap company's first company is now at 20 million dollars in annual or revenues I mean you're ready to take it to the top absolutely all right let's talk rich panel here in a second but first what's this first company founded with 20 million bucks in annual revenue so that's that's a company which is based in India okay and yes or no Oh interesting well services companies you know they're okay but their margins are nowhere near as good as a SAS company right all right tell us about rich tell us all rich panel so we started rich family last year and we are a customer service software which is specifically designed for e-commerce stores okay and as this one SAS model yeah completely says so on average what are these e-commerce stores paying per month to use the technology would you say so we have eight new divisions the SUV division means about hundred dollars a month and yeah we have about 70 paying customer okay and is there another division as well if that's the enterprise division but that's that's more focused on so we actually started off the company with the enterprise division that's four people doing the entire we were in last year and that's that's the area where you know you're funding in Japan that's a problem so can I say that 200 a month times 70 customers you're doing about 14,000 hours a month right now in revenue oh that's good where were you a year ago do you remember so yeah we actually launched the beta version of the product and we didn't have any news okay so and also in July of 2018 there was no money coming in why do you separate that out I assume they're all belong on the same cap table correct no sorry I don't mean me Pope we don't know what the vision means you have your own version of what that means is it on a separate cap table the enterprise company no it's the same cap table but that's analytics and some company okay so real quick take your entire business that part included over the past 12 months what percent of your revenue was services base the ones you're just describing enterprise cohort versus true SAS so which is which is there any paying customers yes my question let's take your total revenue over the past 12 months what percent was pure SAS versus enterprise and like custom services so need a name the major chunk of the business and like more than 80 more than 80 90 percent not there but yeah okay so fair like so maybe 70% of last 12 months revenue what's coming from professional services in your enterprise cohort you basically going oh my gosh we're doing this great work for enterprises let's codify it so that small businesses that can't afford our enterprise vision can use it at scale no touch on a recurring basis absolutely so that's that's kind of true because a lot of the work that we did for enterprise found its way and some of the good that we did for enterprise clients found its way to the product which is now being used by a lot of SME companies I see okay so I mean it is the whole company all together watched you break the million dollar mark or know you think that's this year yeah well it's not like did you or did you not last your break a million in total revenue across both parts of the business okay you think you will this year though yes yeah so how do you I mean this seems to me it's a tricky focused question because you're dealing with like fifty sixty thousand dollar enterprise deals which are hard to resist versus focusing your time on scaling getting more customers no touch at $200 a month how do you split your time that is tricky so what have you been trying to do with the last one year is you to limit the focus and you know you've stopped taking the enterprise business because it just requires so much amount of custom development and we were only taking the business which which aligns with the goods of what we have for the scalable SME business so you know from from day one we saw this opportunity because even when you are working with enterprise right the customer service teams are usually using like a suite of softwares and they have to do length this multitasking capabilities versus the customer so we saw that there is an opportunity and because which panel is so deeply integrated with a platform we're able to give contextually relevant information next to each message so that you know agents have like full information before starting a conversation so that's why we really stand out and focuses you know really the cool dark part because we'd be a scene legged or thought into place clients also be interested in that have you raised capital for the business or you bootstrapped few moves not love that that's great and what's the team size today total 15 and what's the split between kind of engineers Versailles so we have but people in the customer success team be able people in prologue and the Nestor okay so 10 are engineers five are other the three that are customer success today are they carrot quota carrying obviously do they have a quota using the customer success teams people give academics I know people to that Center day so when you go on the website today we are using the customer success team on board these people under the platform and take their feedback as to you know what made us what made them you know come to the channel and stuff like that but the short answer is we don't have a these three people actually came in the company almost like a month ago okay but most people serving this role even when right when I joined the company this is a quote of bearing role typically you want to incentivize them to close more deals why didn't you do that with them either in the first month you know they have B they are handing a little bit of enterprise accounts as well so you know going forward we will have that clear line clear division where you know we were thinking of giving about sixty to eighty thousand dollars of turning to each each person target a new heir are close per month okay so if let me just make sure I get this right so if a new salesperson signs up with you you're saying their quota target would be for them over 12 months to sign up sixty thousand dollars a new annual revenue okay that salesperson though you would be losing money on them if you charged an average commission of thirty percent on sixty grand that's twenty thousand dollar Commission which essentially means their base has to be lower than 40 grand for you to make a dollar on them no so basically we beasts in India you know so to see people in the customer success demons based in India and that's that's when you know the economics really works so how well can you hire just the base component of a sales person in India would be about what base compensation so it would be 1% of see people would work on 1 percent commission yeah yeah good say I dunno I feel like good sales people would not ever work on 1 percent commission they would be doubling down on their award them performance which is you know 15,000 plus 5,000 is your performance payable plus you get like 1 or 2 percent which is the fastest eyelids plus you know I need all of these leads that we're getting today the helium bomb they don't they have to do like 0% outreach so there's money of inbound sales reps they do know how to reach at all they're still incentivize with quota which is which is true but that's that's what it is you know that that's what the CH people are being paid here yeah I mean I I know Girish should fresh works that's not how his sales team is structured and he's based there he's based there in your back yard as well I guess it all just depends on the quality of sales people that you're hiring right if you feel like they don't have to be great because your inbound channels are basically doing all the work then that's fine no it's not so basically the kind of people that we have today their responsibilities I mean it depends upon the sales portion as well right so there are people who want plate like you know or fixed versus like the high or incentivize and good sales person will always want more upside they will bet on themselves and they will want more Commission if a weak sales person will try and fight like hell for no Commission and pure fixed base so they can be lazy and do no work which is which is true but I think I think that's that's for more predictable businesses so all the revenues that we have accumulated here will will now get the confidence in the people and you know more towards like a high available in yeah so what are you talking about you know costs to get a new customer right what is your fully weighted CAC to get any $200 a month customer as of as of today Lea is spending like literally nothing moment now Google Ads most of our you know signups are coming through marketplaces because we have absolute state on commerce Magento and other platforms so that's why we're getting like most of the organic leads yeah fully weighted so that it would include salaries of your CSM's or anyone related to onboarding sales or marketing that would be about you know down your nose okay so you're spending $1,200 to get a $200 a month customer yeah it's about a six month payback you know okay fair enough and again that money's being spent on some placement in these are all the marketplace placements free WooCommerce you know all of three and the only way you can rank higher is using traditional you know issued on things the way you would rank higher they don't have we promote the listings what's your monthly turn today so because the customer base is too small it's it's hard to tell but you know over the last two or three months we will be using about 100k so that would mean like three or four percent monthly turn with 70 customers okay and I mean are they going at a bit wider churning so these customers when they signed up with our site so I promise for that abb be different from a Zendesk or address this because we're letting you take ecommerce actions right inside this like if I'm assisting a customer you see data rich customer profiles right next to the conversation and if it comes to like canceling what are you finding the order can take those actions so that was a promise when we paint them but what we didn't realize is hey you know they expect this in addition to the parity with existing players so you know when they see that we don't have like each a parody with the existing more established players what they do is they find out that maybe maybe that that's an important part of the workflow and that's that's why they're joining right so one of our major focuses in in the product roadmap is to achieve feature parity with these existing more established players right I mean let's wrap up here with the famous five number one what's your favorite business book zero to one number two is their CEO you're following or studying I really found a big one number three what's your favorite online tool for building your company okay we take on imagine number four how many hours you sleep to get every night six and what's your situation married single kids thinking okay okay and how are ya so you come again how old are you I'm thirty years thirty years old last question what do you is your 20 year old self now if I would say start soon you know I always wanted to become in that was that was something which is in a to me so yeah if I can move back in time guys rich panel calm I think of them kind of like intercom but for e-commerce brands live conversations but heat for e-commerce brands did almost a million dollars last year to this year now they have about 70 customers paying pure sass two hundred bucks a month it's at fourteen grand a month the rest their revenues from Enterprise deals custom installations but again most the revenue they're just using to reinvest in their staffs product scaling that nicely they've got a team about fifteen people building it three to four percent monthly churn spending about twelve hundred bucks get a new $200 a month customer for a six month payback period a meet thank you for taking us to the top thank you thank you