How Appointlet CEO Rami El Chamaa grew Appointlet to $515.8K revenue and 1.1K customers in 2024.

this is the top where I interview entrepreneurs who are number one or number two in their industry in terms of Revenue or customer base you'll learn how much revenue they're making what their marketing funnel looks like and how many customers they have I'm now at $20,000 per talk 5 and6 million he is help on global domination we just broke our 100,000 unit sold Mark and I'm your host Nathan lka okay top tribe this week's win of the $100 is Zack Thon he's a 22-year-old Apple employee and he's listening to the show and loving it for your chance to win 100 bucks every Monday simply subscribe to the podcast on iTunes now and then text the word Nathan to 33444 to prove that you did it to enter top tribe you know I don't have a lot of time to waste that's why I use fresh books to send out invoices and make sure I'm collecting my money to eat your free month go to Nathan lad /f freshbooks and enter the top in the how did You Hear About Us section happy February everybody Nathan L to here and this is episode 557 coming up tomorrow morning you'll learn from David darmanian he is a two he CEO of the 2-year-old hot jar which just passed $500,000 in monthly occurring Revenue helping over 10,000 customers see what website visitors are doing Nathan lka here good morning everybody Our Guest today is Rami shama he is the CEO and one of the founders of a pointl now he's got a backstory he started off as a well earlier right before pointland he was a digital marketing manager at eastline marketing where he led lead generation SEO email marketing and content marketing before that he was with Ernst and Young now again he's building a pointl Ramy are you ready to take us to the top I'm ready all right very good I'm excited you're here so hey tell tell us first what does a pointl do and how do you generate revenues so appointed is basically an appointment scheduling software we help businesses and uh people automate their their appointment scheduling so instead of going back and forth uh in emails by phone trying to find the right time to to to meet someone or talk with someone you use our tool you use a pointet to automate this process which will save you time uh I mean in in a lot of cases uh make you I mean increase your revenues and sales um we make our money through uh through subscriptions so we're ass SAS we're a SAS business so we have uh like different monthly or yearly pricing depending on uh your team size yeah great and what is the uh well hold on let me look real quick so I'm on your just give us a sense of like an average what does the average customer pay you per month uh the average customers PS us around um $15 per month okay got it so yeah you have your you have your kind of basic plan at 14 per month solo 27 per month and then 45 per month and 81 per month the average is somewhere around 15 walk us through kind of pricing strategy folks are always curious about that why' you have these four different pricing plans so uh before I talk to you about pricing strategy I mean this pricing has been set uh since like four years now like this type of pricing yeah no I mean this type of pricing not the numbers uh we are moving towards a new type of pricing that works on a per member basis we found out that our customers uh I mean this works much more for for for our customers because uh we would be able to provide them with plans that that would grow their team instead of set of right now if you have a if you have a team of two people that want to use a pointet they're going to have to get on the five member plan yeah all right so that's that's that's an issue that we're currently facing and that uh very soon we're going to move to a new pricing with different price points and uh strategy um now I prefer not to go into the details of the new strategy let let's go back to kind of let's go kind of back to when you founded the business so so you said he founded it in four years ago um yeah let's let's talk about it it's a pretty interesting story um so it's actually my co-founder um Jared Morris uh he's he's from he's in Portland Oregon in the US and uh so he he was working at a previous company in Port uh he saw that took it took too much time to schedule appointments through Google and add it to the calendar so he thought like let's let's let's build a web app that integrates with Google Calendar and that like allows people to like choose a time and let the event go directly to the calendar this was uh this was this was the beginning of a pointet this was the initial version of a pointet and uh and after that I mean Jared is is I mean at the time he he was mainly a developer right so he didn't really know uh maybe what to do next uh or maybe he he he very well did know so he he submitted he submitted a thread on Reddit uh like just built a web web app now what like this was like four years ago and uh me I was like 21 at a time I just saw the thread and I started I looked at the software and I said like this this can be pretty good this is a pretty neat idea and so this is when we started talking with each other and we started working great so yeah yeah so I'm from Lebanon and I met him through it which have you guys have you met in person yet or no we met once in person that was in September of last year and so how do you how do you kind of split roles he's developer and you're doing what I'm doing marketing and growth uh I mean we're both very involved in in in a bit of everything right so but in terms of coding I I don't code I work mainly with customers I hear I hear feedback I see what they're doing with a pointl I try to better understand their use case their the their like scheduling flow and then uh I mean I market so who is our target market how are we going to talk with them on which channels can we reach them uh what's the most coste efficient tool to to cost efficient way to to gain new customers so guys kind of a cool founding story I will link to this Reddit thread actually it's under the entrepreneur section it was submitted 5 Years Ago by by Jared and the subject is my first business period would you use it question mark he says would you use it why or why not what's missing what does it need have I clear explained what it is and then he says free live to my accounts for anyone who' like to check it out and I guess this is the thread where you found him Ry right um when when was this I'm not sure there's there's one there's one I think four years and a half ago got it no actually yeah yeah it should be the five years ago I joined in uh four four years and like five month ago great so I guess it's the five years ago how did you guys are so you guys are kind of the two co-founders how did you guys talk about Equity since he kind of created it and you joined after right after he created it yeah yeah very good question uh at the beginning we didn't really talk much about Equity uh I mean at the time I was 21 and uh I mean I had no idea what what what even software company I I had no idea about anything really uh I knew a bit about SEO a bit about uh like getting your website uh like higher on search engines but that was the extent so obviously I had no idea about I wasn't thinking about Equity right I was thinking about uh how to get customers right now so the the conversation started um like did he pay you like how did you get involved I mean did did he pay you hourly thing or what so so no no actually I did not uh I did not ask for anything at the beginning so I just uh I just I was doing some SEO on the website and uh like at one point I like I was doing some work and I thought I mean I should get compensated so we said like uh uh what do you say I get 25% of the business uhhuh and how he respond uh he responded with the yes and uh and then I mean we've had we've had a lot of equity conversations after that because I mean we've grown a lot and we've learned a lot and we now know uh a lot more about what equ where are you sorry I didn't mean to cut you but where are you today in terms of total customers you said you grew a lot yeah so today we're in around thousand uh, 100,200 okay uh paid customers and how many user like free users total um I mean we don't have a free plan anymore we had it like two three years ago so uh yeah yeah so I'm going to say like around 500 600 got it okay so 1100 1100 paying customers you found it at 5 years ago you started doing work for free how long were you doing stuff for free before you said hey I think maybe I should be compensated uh maybe a year maybe a year it's a great lesson I mean to anybody listening it's a great way to get into any business just start doing their work for them for free right and be valuable so Ramy what did you let's fast forward now so it's obviously 27 it's well you know 2017 um I always like to ask because it's usually an embarrassing number do you remember what your first year Revenue was um yeah I joined in it was 200 M okay 200,000 Mr or 200 200 like $200 yeah yeah like maybe a dozen customers that was it uh now we're at uh obviously with 1,00 customers and uh like our AR is much higher now can I can I do the ma you tell me if this is fair or not you told me earlier arpu was 15 bucks per month can I do 15 time 1100 to get your Mr is that you know of about 16 Grand is that accurate or no I no it's not accurate um uh you want to you're getting the Mr it's around the the 36 37 um yeah the price I gave you was actually the the price per member not per customer oh okay so it's not the average revenue per user got it okay so you're at so your arpo is actually much closer to like 30 than it is 15 yeah okay got it and you said Mr is right around 35ish right now I mean it's yeah yeah in that General range okay and how are you teach us a lesson about kind of customer acquisition since that's what you're focused on how are you acquiring customers so um one of the things we really focus on and we have focused on during the past four years is actually uh listening to our customers and creating a a flow that lets us that lets them feel uh like really care about them I mean we do really care about them right but I mean make them know that you care about them and and and and support them so I mean this is I mean we always hear that right uh startups uh they grow through support and through like being there for their customers now it's a bit different in scheduling because uh when you're using scheduling tools right uh so let's say I send you my scheduling link so as soon as I send you my scheduling you'll have an idea of what the scheduling Tool uh does and what scheduling Tool uh Works how scheduling tool works so basically the the the app sells itself right because I mean if I share it with a thousand of my customers a thousand of my customers like there's GNA be a light in their head doubles yeah yeah I mean the V the visibility is I don't know how you call it technical term but I mean if you have a customer that sends it to a thousand customers then your your target market is is is like your pool of potential customers is gets bigger and bigger so you have a little thing with every calendar invite it says like sent with you know a pointl or something like that exactly exactly so so we've integrated these uh branding techniques into this knowledge of of uh of the fact that one customers brings you a lot of customers this is how scheduling works it's not the same for other software because here you you interact with your customers all the time with your prospect so they see what you're doing and they think oh I want I want I want that as well MH um so I mean this is this is one area where we focused on and and like we create an affet program as well we we uh we we brand the booking page like small branding for anyone that that that wants to see what's what's like who's behind this and how can I use this tool and uh I mean this is also part of our of our new pricing uh so uh we're we're we're focusing a lot more on this knowledge in our new pricing that one customers brings you a lot more so I'm not going to go into exactly how but uh this is something no I mean it it makes it makes good sense there's a you know the lifetime value of one customer actually drives lifetime value of new customers as well yeah yeah and and Big Time in in scheduling and big time yeah uh would you say that's the number one growth channel for you in terms of the cut like this month January you know 2016 you're going to add more customers obviously would you say the majority of those customers by far will come from other people sending them a pointl invites um I would say so yeah I would say uh if you take referrals all type of referrals yes okay all type of referrals so that's a word of mouth that's uh that's booking page signup so you look at the booking page and sign up that's affet um yeah yeah yeah right well hey we're running short on time so I just want I mean we're running short on time so I just want to ask some questions about a few other unit economic stuff just for SAS Founders and learning um take us to the rest of them so RP you said was around 30 bucks what about gross churn per month what's that at oh we're around maybe five or 6% right now okay and then um and then what about customer acquisition costs so the ones that are not referrals which are basically free are you doing any paid marketing yeah yeah yeah we're doing uh targeted paid uh marketing campaigns like very targeted paid campaigns uh focused on uh like focused on landing page because app Point works really well with landing page software and uh so we look at people who are searching these terms and Target them uh with paid campaigns okay about how much are would you say you're spending per month on paid campaigns in total um I would say around not much around maybe 2,000 3,000 okay and so and you know how many new customers will you get from that like what are you willing to spend to get a new customer uh we're willing to spend around um 120 140 okay and and you there was a thought process there what were you thinking uh I'm thinking lifetime value yeah what's your lifetime value what do you project it to be around 400 $500 yeah and are you just taking the $30 arpo times an LT life a life value of months of around 20 I'm giving you figures like out of my head I don't have them in front of me so they're obviously not ex not uh no rangers are fine Rangers are fine and then update me on team size so where are you guys at today is it just you two still so we actually hired our first uh customer support manager um that was uh that was in a April I guess congrats this of 2016 yeah thank you thank you that that was that was huge for us uh because we were handling everything so now uh we have we have someone here to help us so Portland and Beirut huh Portland and Beirut yeah yeah yeah Lisa Lisa is also she's she's in Portland yeah very good uh and right now we're looking for a software developer actually oh good okay good I'll keep that in mind what do you what's the like like the salary range um so I mean it depends on on on on on the on the skills uh so if if if we're if we're talking about if there's a full stack developer this will defer from just uh a python developer let's say but I mean it's around the 90 to 100K okay great and is this in Portland OR Beirut uh this is in I mean in the US yeah yeah yeah in the US would be much uh much better for us I mean we we we've we've thought about I mean having developers like everywhere in the word can make it hard to to manage yeah I mean this is another discussion um but yeah so me last question before I get into the famous five are you guys uh have you raised capital or you bootstrapped we're bootstrapped okay got it we're bootstrapped any any interest in raising capital or you're kind of just avoiding that um we've had some interest now we're we're not that interested uh until we need it so uh so once we need it I mean we're going to I mean we we have different ways of getting this this uh this uh the needed money right we're at the point where we don't really we need to to give out so much Equity to to to raise money so there are different ways um like taking a loan for example yeah uh which which could be smart right so uh once we're going to need that extra money uh we're going to figure it out I mean but we have we have uh like we have solutions for that yeah are you are you guys guys cash flow positive currently yeah Bo time okay top tribe as many of you know I sold heo and Everyone is always ask me what my expenses were when I was building hoo well a big expense was that I spent over 3 Grand per month on financial services to keep me out of trouble in terms of taxes you know my mom would always Harbor me Nathan you got to keep all your receipts and put them in a freaking box or something to make sure you don't get an audit or things like this I'm like Mom I'm a millennial you think I'm going to keep all these receipts I now use thresh books I use their mobile app to take a picture of receipts and it makes taxes a cinch additionally I don't have to hire a $3,000 per month person to manage all my finances it's like saving so much money and my mom's happy additionally I don't waste a bunch of time creating invoices I use their templates and I can avoid using word templates or Excel files I just use freshbook to quickly send out invoices and it works like a charm to get your free first month go to Nathan lanka.com freshbooks and enter the top in the how did You Hear About Us section again go to Nathan lanka.com freshbooks and enter the top in the how did You Hear About Us section okay very good let's uh let's get into the famous five here number one what is your favorite Business book my favorite Business book um I'm Gonna Go With The Lean Startup number two is there a CEO you're following or studying right now uh Elon Musk and number three uh let me see here number three do you have a f besides your own do you have a favorite online tool like top tow I mean inom yeah it's a good one number number four yes or no do you get eight hours of sleep every night no and what's your situation I mean are you married single do you have kids um let's say it's complicated it's recently complicated no no kids no kids no I'm 20 I'm 26 nice 26 so last question my man take us back six years what do you wish your 20-year-old self knew um o um what do I wish 20 year old self knew um oh that's a tough question uh just give me 30 second I don't know I don't know I'm just I'm just happy the way I learn things I mean there are so many things there's so many things uh uh well it sounds like you've had some success just doing go ahead maybe uh maybe the importance of uh I don't know no I don't have anything I don't have anything I at 20 I didn't know much about anything right so I was just learning everything uh but I mean there's there's no key uh learning it's it's it's bit by bit guys a key learning that I would encourage you to take from uh from uh story is he jumped in it did work for free right uh created a lot of value now he's a co-founder at again a point uh at a Point lit and again they're growing like crazy launched about 5 years ago off a Reddit thread and that's how the founders found each other they're now at 1100 customers their bootstrapped doing about a $30 arpo about 35 Grand per month in Revenue 5% gross return willing to spend about 120 bucks on customer acquisition cost Lifetime by of around 400 or 500 bucks with their team of three based between Portland and Beirut Rami thank you for taking us to the top thank you Nathan thank you if you enjoyed Ramy today go back in listen Manuel yesterday they 3D printed baby Sophia's new foot faster and cheaper than Alternatives top tribe I love giving away free money I feel like op giving away cars and I have something special for you today how many of you have heard our super sharp guests talk about success they've had with Facebook and Google ads well all of you listening right now yes if you're listening you get $100 in free AdWords here's how you get it okay again thanks for listening get the free $100 from Google right when you sign up with my website host provider HostGator go sign up now to get your free money hostgator.com Nathan again that's hostgator.com Nathan okay top tribe I'll see you right and early tomorrow morning and don't forget before you listen to any other episodes subscribe on iTunes right now for your chance to win a 100 bucks every [Music] Monday